Sharpness out of the box, traditional knives please

It's nice when they come sharp from the factory, but usually I don't mind putting my own edge on them. I was given a Case Mini Copperhead with wharncliffe main blade recently. The factory bevel was very uneven with an extreme wire edge. The wire is easy enough to knock off but I had to completely reprofile the edge. It looked like the factory edge had a 10-15° angle on one side and 45° on the other side. It was too thick behind the edge too, so reprofiling took quite a while even with the diamond stones I have. It's a great little knife now, but a lot of knife buyers today haven't had much experience sharpening.

I bought a GEC #14 a couple of weeks before the Case was given to me and it came with a working edge at least. I sharpened it also, but it was much easier. I bought a Case stockman recently because it priced at less than $25 and had bone covers. It came with very decent factory edges, but I returned it because it had other problems and the ugliest bone I've ever seen from Case. I didn't feel right trying to flip it.

Paul
 
Since the late 60's I've bought Case, Old Timer, Buck, Camillus, GEC & Queen & have yet to see a knife come sharp out of the box. I actually get a laugh when I hear about a knife coming shaving sharp out of the box. They all tend to to come usable sharp out of the box. Usable to me means belt ground toothy, some are better than others but for the most part they are usable. There were exceptions but in my experience pocket knives come mostly usable sharp. They'll all cut cardboard, plastic banding & apples, so that if the impossible happened & I bought one because I didn't have one on me. I could get it and go. In that situation if I look at a knife and it's the exception I would just pick another.

Pocket knives are mostly hand built, people can't replicate a perfect edge in a factory setting every time. Can't be done. If you want the standard to be a perfect 600 diamond grit, 20 degree per side edge, the price is going to go up. Way up.

Until such time as a company invests the capital to automate the knife building process. So that every knife can be built to robotic tolerances of plus or minus .001 usable is all you are going to get. Usable for the general public it's the standard, always has been.
We are knife nuts, sharpen it.

Ones mans sharp is another mans dull, the factories can't make everyone happy.
 
supratentorial said:
I've gotten dull knives from all of those companies... except the foreign made Schrade/Imperial since I've never owned one of those knives. I assume you meant the foreign made knives since you often post about them.

Every company has it's hits and misses. I know you are a fan of the foreign made knives but the edges can be wild and variable. One of the worst edges that I've ever gotten from any company was from Rough Rider. On a RR whittler, the front half of one blade was sharpened on both sides. The back half was not sharpened at all.

The worst that I've gotten was from Bear and Son-- it was an unsharpened blank.
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My apologies. Until recently, the only USA made Shrade/Old Timer/Uncle Henry I owned was up in Idaho. I think it is a 6OT, but would not swear to it. I don't remember it being dull when I bought it, but I know it has been sharpened a couple times since 1984 (give or take) when I bought it.
I recently won a GAW by Mark Sharp that contained a couple older USA Imperials. According to the tang stamps, one is pre-1956 (a scout/camp knife, 4 blades, spear, pen, can opener, flat screwdriver/cap lifer combo, same as my SAK Recruit), the other is an easy open 2 blade jack from sometime between 1956 to 1988.
Obviously, I cannot comment on how sharp they were new.

At any rate, I will shut up and get lost, since my posts about what I have offended you, and probably others.
 
Not wishing to cause controversy, I'm assuming a Douk-Douk falls under the classification of a "traditional" knife. That being accepted, I will state categorically that my El Baraka is the sharpest knife I've ever
gotten out of a tube, box or package. I doubt this thing cost more than a couple of bucks to manufacture but it is an absolute scalpel. Of course I bought more; great gifts to say the least.
 
afishhunter, I'm not offended. And nobody wants you to "shut up"... well at least I don't :p ;) ...please do discuss. It doesn't matter whether or not we agree or disagree. We're all just expressing our opinions and experiences.
 
Even knives that come sharp don't usually have polished edges, and I want a polished, even edge bevel. So I usually put my own on there. Except for a Northwoods I had with a CPM-154 blade. It was polished enough.

As for thickness behind the edge, Case and GEC seem to do the best job in my opinion. CSC and Queen/S&M cut, but they've been ground thicker than I prefer. Maybe it's time to learn how to regrind?
 
supratentorial said:
afishhunter, I'm not offended. And nobody wants you to "shut up"... well at least I don't :p ;) ...please do discuss. It doesn't matter whether or not we agree or disagree. We're all just expressing our opinions and experiences.
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Yes!:thumbup:
 
For many years, Victoriox has been my gold standard for pocket knives. For sharpness out of the box they manage to have a uniform degree of edge no matter where you buy them. It makes flying with no knife a non risk venture, knowing that thenext big box store you come to, you can pick up a SAK for the price of a chain restaurant lunch, and it will be as perfect as the one you left home. Right out of the box, it will be sharp enough to do anything you have have to do with a pocket knife.
 
I'll agree Victorinox is as constant as they come. Victorinox is a very automated manufacturing process, kicked out by the thousands. Where as most pocket knives are still built by hand. Some times on the same equipment used generations ago. Until pocket knife manufacturing catches up pocket knives will always have little differences from one to the next. Like imperfect edges.
 
You are correct jackknife, SAKs are consistently sharp out of the box so I need to amend my first post! In fact, I have owned many over the years and they all came good to go:thumbup:
 
SupraT and others-I was watching an episode of "How it's made", half hour show, Canadian originally I believe, that shows the manufacturing processes for just about anything, and they happened to have Vic SAKS on. The only part of the process they didn't show was , you guessed it, the sharpening. They stated it was proprietary, done with specialized equipment made for them, and all mechanical, IIRC. So it would make sense that they have that type of consistency. They also showed case in one episode, and I seem to recall at least some final edges being hand applied. FWIW
Thanks, Neal
 
Thank you, Neal. Here are some photos of the automated process for sharpening at Victorinox.

Victorinox



I have a booklet from Victorinox that shows their sharpening and manufacturing before their production became so heavily automated. Their manufacturing process has changed a lot.

Case, GEC, and Queen sharpen manually. I think Buck probably does as well but I haven't looked it up. GEC sharpens on a slow stone grinder and Case uses a belt grinder.

Setting up an automated process might be more difficult for GEC and Case compared to Victorinox. GEC and Case both work with a much wider range of knife blade shapes and sizes.

Could the manually sharpened edges be considered part of the charm and tradition of a hand made traditional knife? Or is a highly uniform and consistent edge from an automated process more important? What do you guys think?

GEC


Case
 
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Dean51 said:
I'll agree Victorinox is as constant as they come. Victorinox is a very automated manufacturing process, kicked out by the thousands. Where as most pocket knives are still built by hand. Some times on the same equipment used generations ago. Until pocket knife manufacturing catches up pocket knives will always have little differences from one to the next. Like imperfect edges.
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This is why Schrade and Camillus is no longer with us. Old machines and failure to modernize is a death knell to any business. The best knives in the world used to come out of Sheffield, but lack of modernization killed the industry. Victorinox is the most automated knife factory in the world. And they do periodically update and phase in new higher speed machinery to keep up the pace and overall quality. The second most automated knife factory is Opinel, of France. You won't find any Opinels being made on the same machines there as a generation ago. Yet Opinel turns out more knives per year than Buck and Case combined.

The image of pocketknives being built by hand by dedicated craftsmen is an image of the past, just as the image of the gunsmith making guns by hand. Glock spits out guns by the thousands with a QA level that has let them takeover 80% of the police market. When Schrade closed their doors and the old equipment was carried out the door, those old lathes and drill presses that were worn out junk was a lesson in economics. If you don't modernize, you'll die. In this day of machine operations, theres really no excuse for uneven blade grinds or dull edges on a new knife.
 
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supratentorial said:
I have a booklet from Victorinox that shows their sharpening and manufacturing before their production became so heavily automated. Their manufacturing process has changed a lot.

Case, GEC, and Queen sharpen manually. I think Buck probably does as well but I haven't looked it up. GEC sharpens on a slow stone grinder and Case uses a belt grinder.

Setting up an automated process might be more difficult for GEC and Case compared to Victorinox. GEC and Case both work with a much wider range of knife blade shapes and sizes.

Could the manually sharpened edges be considered part of the charm and tradition of a hand made traditional knife? Or is a highly uniform and consistent edge from an automated process more important? What do you guys think?
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To me, the overall quality is important, but just as important is the uniformity. There is no reason for one Case stickman to be different than another Case stickman. Yet many people still prefer to buy at a brick and mortar store so they can hand pick through them. Uneven blade grinds, gaps in spacers and back springs, blade wobble on a new knife. All this has been discussed by members of this forum, and even GEC has it's failures.

Case and GEC could set up an automated blade sharpening process, but that would mean making a capital investment in the expensive machines needed. This would cut into the overall profit margin, so they won't do it. The American business model seems to be, "Push things as far as you can without having to invest any profits in the business, so the executive bonuses will be bigger." This is why American car companies were in Washington with hands out for bail out money to keep them in business while their Asian competitors where fine. Camillus and Schrade imploded for this reason.

Casr does make a lot of different models, BUT, many many of those models use the same size blades. It wouldn't be hard to re-organize the operations to make "runs" of parts for production. And these parts, like the parts of SAK's, would be precision enough to assemble in a very fine tolerance pocket knife. Case has a very limited 'frame' size. Theres about four different overall chassis sizes that ae similar blades in different arrangements. Modern computer run machining centers are not one trick ponies. An automated sharpening machine can, with some keyboard work, change from program B to program C when a change of blade shape and size is needed. How do you think Victorinox makes spear point blades in 58mm, 74mm, 84mm, 91mm, and 93mm, and the the really big one hand models? It's programable machines. And handle scales can be made the same way, with 'runs' to build up parts inventory for future knives. But, the parts all have to be totally uniform in specs, and that's not going be done without investing in the same kind of machines that Victorinox uses.

The American cutlery industry is a very pale shadow of what it used to be, not because it couldn't produce great cutlery. But because of failed business models and the greed of the owners not wanting to invest in newer and better machines when they come available. Case and Buck could equal Victorinox if they really wanted, but that would mean they would have to changer their operations a bit. And they won't do that.
 
jackknife said:
To me, the overall quality is important, but just as important is the uniformity. There is no reason for one Case stickman to be different than another Case stickman. Yet many people still prefer to buy at a brick and mortar store so they can hand pick through them. Uneven blade grinds, gaps in spacers and back springs, blade wobble on a new knife. All this has been discussed by members of this forum, and even GEC has it's failures.

Case and GEC could set up an automated blade sharpening process, but that would mean making a capital investment in the expensive machines needed. This would cut into the overall profit margin, so they won't do it. The American business model seems to be, "Push things as far as you can without having to invest any profits in the business, so the executive bonuses will be bigger." This is why American car companies were in Washington with hands out for bail out money to keep them in business while their Asian competitors where fine. Camillus and Schrade imploded for this reason.

Casr does make a lot of different models, BUT, many many of those models use the same size blades. It wouldn't be hard to re-organize the operations to make "runs" of parts for production. And these parts, like the parts of SAK's, would be precision enough to assemble in a very fine tolerance pocket knife. Case has a very limited 'frame' size. Theres about four different overall chassis sizes that ae similar blades in different arrangements. Modern computer run machining centers are not one trick ponies. An automated sharpening machine can, with some keyboard work, change from program B to program C when a change of blade shape and size is needed. How do you think Victorinox makes spear point blades in 58mm, 74mm, 84mm, 91mm, and 93mm, and the the really big one hand models? It's programable machines. And handle scales can be made the same way, with 'runs' to build up parts inventory for future knives. But, the parts all have to be totally uniform in specs, and that's not going be done without investing in the same kind of machines that Victorinox uses.

The American cutlery industry is a very pale shadow of what it used to be, not because it couldn't produce great cutlery. But because of failed business models and the greed of the owners not wanting to invest in newer and better machines when they come available. Case and Buck could equal Victorinox if they really wanted, but that would mean they would have to changer their operations a bit. And they won't do that.
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You make several very interesting points, and I agree with much of it. Something to consider, however, is to whom the final product is marketed.

I believe that GE started with a different idea in mind. They have been targeting collectors since day one by producing traditional patterns, using traditional materials. They do as much of the production process by hand as is reasonably possible, and place emphasis on quality over quantity.

It took them a few years to gain a following, but their business model apparently has been successful. They limit production to small runs, and as a result sell out almost all of what they produce.

If they were to automate and increase production, I doubt that would continue to be the case. Bill Howard certainly deserves credit for finding a way to successfully produce old-style cutlery in a small factory in this day and age.
 
I don't really have an answer to the questions that I asked. But it was more of a question of personal preference rather than business practices. Something that was in mind when I wrote the question was a forum member (maybe it was Machina??) recently said that he'd lose all interest in traditionals if the manufacturing process became more automated. I think there's going to be a wide range of opinions. There is, of course, some automation in American knife making... even at GEC. The blade blanks are roughly shaped by an automated process. The final grinding is done by hand though (the process looks so crude but the results are so good it can only be explained by magic! :p). And the sharpening is done by hand as well. If you compare GEC knives to early Victorinox knives, they have a very similar construction. Victorinox changed the construction as well as the manufacturing over the years. They no longer look the same. Would collectors want GEC knives made with the same construction as knives from Victorinox? I doubt it. But differences in manufacturing that don't change the appearance would probably go completely unnoticed.

Unfortunately, you can't see the mechanism (inside the machine) used by Victorinox. I won't make a guess about whether they can switch knives by just pressing a button. Maybe. They may also have multiple inserts for each blade. With their production numbers, I think it's likely that they also have multiple machines sharpening one blade at a time. Making multiple inserts and programs for each new pattern and blade might kill any profit for a company as small as GEC. Hard to say without more info. It might work better for Buck and Case.
 
supratentorial said:
Would collectors want GEC knives made with the same construction as knives from Victorinox? I doubt it. But differences in manufacturing that don't change the appearance would probably go completely unnoticed.
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I should clarify this... especially since I would LOVE for Victorinox to make patterns like a sowbelly--I'll buy a dozen!!! :D

What I meant is that the folks who want to take out a magnifying glass and look for even springs and liners etc etc are not going to be satisfied by a knife manufactured the way that Victorinox manufacturers knives. The construction of a knife from Victorinox and GEC are different and can't be judged by the same criteria. Differences in manufacturing like the handles being shaped by grinding are the reason for some of those features that collectors enjoy obsessing over.

The market would be completely different. I do think there would be a market though. A big one.
 
supratentorial said:
Unfortunately, you can't see the mechanism (inside the machine) used by Victorinox. I won't make a guess about whether they can switch knives by just pressing a button. Maybe. They may also have multiple inserts for each blade. With their production numbers, I think it's likely that they also have multiple machines sharpening one blade at a time. Making multiple inserts and programs for each new pattern and blade might kill any profit for a company as small as GEC. Hard to say without more info. It might work better for Buck and Case.
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No, it can't be changed by a push of a button. But, it is not an overly complicated process either. The last 30 years I worked before retiring was as a machinist, and a good bit of that was on modern commuter run mills and lathes.

With the Takasawa machining centers we used, we had a set of fixtures/jigs that actually held the part, and a corresponding program number that identified the part. It was a matter of changing the jigs in the machines vise, and changing the proper program number and running a test part or two. It only took a few parts to make any fine adjustments to the new parts run that we were making at that time. Like a final dialing in from one part number program to another. This let us change from making one part to another for a parts run for a particular model we were making at that time. We could make an inventory of many different parts for a product in a very short period of time with a great uniformity of specs on those parts. When it came time for a different product, we changed the jigs in the machine vise, switched programs to run the 'new' program and then ran a few parts to dial in any small errors from the change over. Out specs generally ran .005 plus or minus, but some of the government stuff was plus .0 minus .003. The Japanese machining centers we used had no trouble holding those specs, and change over from one part to another was an hours work. ONce chang over took place, parts could be run on back to back shifts until a large inventory was built up.

This would not work with GEC as you said, it's a boutique company making small runs to keep the market on them up. But case and Buck would flourish under this operation method. All it would take is the investment of the cost of the new machines. But the production numbers would go way up, and the consistency of the product would be outstanding.
 
"The American cutlery industry is a very pale shadow of what it used to be, not because it couldn't produce great cutlery. But because of failed business models and the greed of the owners not wanting to invest in newer and better machines when they come available. Case and Buck could equal Victorinox if they really wanted, but that would mean they would have to changer their operations a bit. And they won't do that."

I was under the impression that a lot of American cutlery companies could'nt survive due to the big box stores purchasing policies. Continuing to renegotiate contracts for lower prices until they couldn't make a profit . I'm sure there's greed involved , just not sure it's the cutlery companies .
 
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