SHe's a stripper

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Very Informative Petey-Thanks, So according to this theory I am Purchasing a Huck Fin for xxx amount of dollars (a substantial amount) and getting a less refined Grade? Why have the deeper and more numerous pits never been seen by hogs in the past? I totally understand that a CG does not take the time and Labor that a satin model encompasses, but really those Shown by the OP?
PeteyTwoPointOne said:
I see where you're coming from Tom.

Let's start with :
What do we know about INFI dimples?

***they're only skin deep...they're a surface phenomenon...I've personally sanded down past them and I've never seen evidence of inclusions actually "in" the stock <FACT>

***they are unique to INFI <whether it's an artifact of HT or the formulation of the alloy, who knows? :confused:>


Now, let's move on to "pits" or "craters" :
What do we know about them?

***they are present on "rough finish INFI" that is ordinarily incorporated for satin models <FACT, as per Jerry himself on p.6 of this thread>

***some CG recent blades utilized some of this less refined grade <FACT, see above>

***the deeper "pits", at least the degree of their size & number, have not been seen before by some hogs <FACT, Jerry, same page, earlier post>

***refining INFI costs $$$ and time <FACT, common sense, and confirmed by Jerry multiple x's>



If, I've overlooked some facts or likely deductions <or if I'm FLAT-OUT WRONG>, let me know...

Now it's natural to assume pits & craters are "different" from dimples and a novel phenomenon, since no one's seen them before...

But, let's consider even Competition FINISH blades have a rudimentary level of refinement...and CF blades were sold in a "rougher" state, that is, less processed than any other blade heretofore.

So, the "INFI dimples" many of us know and love likely looked VERY DIFFERENT before they got the Competition FINISH...

Now I'm thinking what we call an "INFI dimple" may just be the refined bottom of what's recently been observed as a "pit" or "crater" in the rawer grade

If we were to see the pure raw INFI from the floor of the foundry, totally unprocessed, it may look like swiss cheese on the surface. It's for sure not gonna look like even the lowest level of "FINISH", ie Competition FINISH.

And just like I can personally change Competition into Satin via grinding, Competition is processed from "rough" INFI-- and very likely "rough" INFI looked a lot "rougher" before anneal, HT, quench process.

I think, and Jerry's pretty much confirmed, the only difference HOGs & squealers are seeing in the INFI in question in this thread is in the LEVEL OF REFINEMENT...


As for finding out what ultimately causes the INFI dimples, pits, craters...I support your inquires to their origin and I will stay tuned...but I wouldn't hold my breath for a definitive answer...I've heard even the janitor at Wauseon has signed a non-disclosure document! ;)
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AR-Trvlr said:
Assuming that the heat treat occurs after being ground, how can the pits be from the heat treat process? They may clean the blade up a bit after HT, but not enough to remove any pits.
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From the looks of the finished blades the heat treat is done before the grinding. It also looks like most of the grinding is done on CNC mills with hand finish work.
 
I think what you guys are seeing is bark and rough surface imperfections (pits, craters, whatever you want to call it) from the steel mill. My guess is that Busse didn't bother to surface finish the flats because the batch of blades was meant to be coated. Is that simple enough?

Also, it's not a lesser type or less refined "grade" of INFI. It's all the same stuff.

Bottom line is: if you take the coating off of a knife, you can't know beforehand what you're going to get. It's a crap shoot. It could look great, could look like 10 miles of bad road. It's ultimately your decision, but it's one you have to live with, so choose wisely.
 
I think you have hit the nail on the head Brother-Thanks for a well thought out response
AntDog said:
I think what you guys are seeing is bark and rough surface imperfections (pits, craters, whatever you want to call it) from the steel mill. My guess is that Busse didn't bother to surface finish the flats because the batch of blades was meant to be coated. Is that simple enough?

Also, it's not a lesser type or less refined "grade" of INFI. It's all the same stuff.

Bottom line is: if you take the coating off of a knife, you can't know beforehand what you're going to get. It's a crap shoot. It could look great, could look like 10 miles of bad road. It's ultimately your decision, but it's one you have to live with, so choose wisely.
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AntDog said:
I think what you guys are seeing is bark and rough surface imperfections (pits, craters, whatever you want to call it) from the steel mill. My guess is that Busse didn't bother to surface finish the flats because the batch of blades was meant to be coated. Is that simple enough?

Also, it's not a lesser type or less refined "grade" of INFI. It's all the same stuff.

Bottom line is: if you take the coating off of a knife, you can't know beforehand what you're going to get. It's a crap shoot. It could look great, could look like 10 miles of bad road. It's ultimately your decision, but it's one you have to live with, so choose wisely.
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Bingo...you hit on some of what was in my head as to the production of these blades. If it is a model that there will not be a satin version of they will all be kind of rough. If it is a model that a satin run is being done then the satin version is done first. While those knives are being finished if anyone goofs up a blank a little or a tool mark is a little to bad to sand out those blanks go into a pile for coating. In my mind this would make sense as to why some coated models are anywhere from satin to very rough under the coating. I do know that the NMFSH had a satin run done first and at least the first part of the run coated blades when stripped were really nice satin blades under the coating. I have nor stripped mine yet,it was one from later in the run so I may not be lucky enough for it to be that nice under the coating.
 
TommyGun56 said:
Very Informative Petey-Thanks, So according to this theory I am Purchasing a Huck Fin for xxx amount of dollars (a substantial amount) and getting a less refined Grade? Why have the deeper and more numerous pits never been seen by hogs in the past? I totally understand that a CG does not take the time and Labor that a satin model encompasses, but really those Shown by the OP?
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Less refined as compared to what Tom?

"Refinement," at least the way I used it, means to what degree time, labor, energy, and materials have been consumed to get it processed to a certain level, or as Busse terms it, Grade.

So, I BELIEVE, the pits are being seen because that particular batch of INFI had less processing done to it than any other that had been released to the public for sale before. Even Jerry confirmed it was outside most HOG's experiences & observations.

So if you're talking CG vs. LE , then, yes, you're getting a "less refined" blade!

For example:

bar stock or sheet INFI from foundry, cost = $

INFI cost after anneal, HT, & quench protocol = $$

INFI formed into Huck Finn and given Competition level FINISH <that is, refinement, in my usage> = $$$

Huck Fin after Combat Grade level of refinement + paint = $$$$

Huck Fin after Limited Edition Satin level of refinement = $$$$$

Huck Fin after Custom Shop level of refinement = $$$$$$

don't misunderstand me, I HAVE BELIEF the INFI in a CS Huck Finn <if there were such a thing> has EXACTLY the same chemical properties as the Competition Grade Huck Finn ...

the only difference is in the "prettiness" of the INFI, directly related to time, labor, & materials applied to the steel.

CG INFI is not lesser steel than CS INFI...

I have a feeling that you didn't read all my post , cause AntDog summarized <thanks AD :)> almost everything I tried to make a point of...

It's ultimately my fault for writing so much...see I've done it again :o...just the teacher in my blood
 
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Full flat grinds are usually pretty smooth. It can still take a lot of work to get it satin, but you can get it to feel smooth in no time.
 
I get and understand the process of CG, vs Comp Finish, Vs Satin, Petey, what does this statement mean- I BELIEVE, the pits are being seen because that particular batch of INFI had less processing done to it than any other that had been released to the public for sale before. Even Jerry confirmed it was outside most HOG's experiences & observations.
I understand and believe the Steel used in all models will perform the same, I get you pay more to have a pretty blade,-You used the Huck Fin as an example this is a pretty expensive knife, about $50 less than a compareable SATIN Battle Mistress, (Yes the Huck Fin has a 1 inch longer Blade and CBT) and yet if I strip it I may encounter Brad Pitts-C'mon brother Talk to me-Cheers
 
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Can we please stop calling them Brad Pitts lmao!!

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^^^^^^^^^^^^OH my GAWD!!!!!!!!

Man.... I just took a sip of my beer saw that and busted out laughing.... Beer through the nose!


That's hilarious.


The way I see it, Jerry says its all good. He has spent a long time to earn a reputation as the top 'hard-use' knifemaker in the business. If he's willing to put his name on it and warranty it than it's good enough for me.

BeerAidohyeah_zpsfe161d50.jpg



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Tom, read post #104 in this thread ...for some reason it's not letting me multi-quote Jerry....look at where he's replying to resinguy's 3rd question...

Busse, for whatever reason, utilized "untrimmed porkchops" ( technical term, I know, but it's not mine ) in the SH ergo CG run >>>Jerry's post #120...

No one had ever seen pits & craters before BECAUSE they have NEVER used INFI in that level of processing (before the SH-e) in a finished blade prior to that model.

The pits & craters ARE NOT a new thing because the INFI has changed formulation or HT protocol...and that's not from me, but from the boss himself...re: "No conspiracy theory...no big deal..." also post #120....

Please someone step in if I'm talking out of turn!

They're likely gonna be on the raw INFI blade blank of your satin WTF before they're polished out.

So, the "believe" part comes in that I take Jerry at his word that nothing has changed about the INFI, cause I don't have the equipment nor expertise to test it out scientifically to prove/disprove that the INFI's unchanged. All I have is his statements.

I also believe the OP would never be able to tell the difference <in use> between the SH-e INFI vs. any more polished grade of INFI ever offered.

It's similar to the old scenario of a tree falling in the woods with no one around.

If the blade wouldn't have been stripped, the pits would be a NON-ISSUE on every level-- use, warranty, performance, sharpening, etc. etc.
 
Got it Petey-Thanks-I never meant to imply nor did I, that there was a conspiracy, only that I had never seen Brad Pitts like that before, nor did I ever imply the structural integrity had been compromised-I can live with all the above explanations I have heard-thanks for all the input guys-It is good we can agree to disagree- One final question Does stripping Void the Warranty? Is this considered after Market Alterations that could cause Damage or the Knife to Fail? Thanks again Petey
PeteyTwoPointOne said:
Tom, read post #104 in this thread ...for some reason it's not letting me multi-quote Jerry....look at where he's replying to resinguy's 3rd question...

Busse, for whatever reason, utilized "untrimmed porkchops" ( technical term, I know, but it's not mine ) in the SH ergo CG run >>>Jerry's post #120...

No one had ever seen pits & craters before BECAUSE they have NEVER used INFI in that level of processing (before the SH-e) in a finished blade prior to that model.

The pits & craters ARE NOT a new thing because the INFI has changed formulation or HT protocol...and that's not from me, but from the boss himself...re: "No conspiracy theory...no big deal..." also post #120....

Please someone step in if I'm talking out of turn!

They're likely gonna be on the raw INFI blade blank of your satin WTF before they're polished out.

So, the "believe" part comes in that I take Jerry at his word that nothing has changed about the INFI, cause I don't have the equipment nor expertise to test it out scientifically to prove/disprove that the INFI's unchanged. All I have is his statements.

I also believe the OP would never be able to tell the difference <in use> between the SH-e INFI vs. any more polished grade of INFI ever offered.

It's similar to the old scenario of a tree falling in the woods with no one around.

If the blade wouldn't have been stripped, the pits would be a NON-ISSUE on every level-- use, warranty, performance, sharpening, etc. etc.
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If I'm seeing everything in this thread correctly, and I've read every post at least once...

the issue can be summed up like this: "If I pay a lot of $$$$ for coated INFI, it shouldn't have pits under the paint"

Fine, I can understand the feelings behind that sentiment because no one's given me the money I spend on my blades, I work just like you guys....

BUT...

When you buy COATED INFI, the covenant agreement <yes that's what every business transaction is> between you & Busse is that you're buying INFI COATED in PAINT...there's no promise or standard of expectation about VISUAL BEAUTY agreed upon by either party what the INFI is gonna look like if you REMOVE the manufacturer's factory installed option! Now if you notice a divot or visual imperfection under the paint with it still applied, you may have a case to take up with Busse Combat Co.

BUT...

There remains a GUARANTEE <the best in the world, IMHO> that a painted Busse will perform as tough as a Custom Shop Busse.

I guess that's why I'm pretty fearless about deleting the paint on some expensive Busse's, it's a non-issue to me and I like the rugged look plus it helps me not to worry about beatin the dog piss out of it...

Some of my favorite blades I have goofed up the grind on, or scratched the blade face and I just decide to wail on it...it's liberating and all HOGS need to experience it, if they haven't yet! :thumbup:

if you're unsure of what your blade looks like beneath the paint and you fret over it...leave it alone!
 
TommyGun56 said:
Does stripping the knife Void the Warranty? Is this considered after market alterations that could cause damage or the knife to fail?
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I wouldn't think so. I mean, the paint comes off through use anyway and it's not like regrinding or some other after market alterations that actually affect the steel, it's only taking the paint off. Don't take my word for it though, obviously!
 
TommyGun56 said:
I do however have one final question and it is this-Does stripping the knife Void the Warranty? Is this considered after market alterations that could cause damage or the knife to fail? Thanks again Petey
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There is no reason to believe that this is the case. Busse has covered knives that had far more extreme things done to them than merely stripping the coating. At least if one uses a typical stripper. I suppose that if you put the knife in a bed of hot coals or left it on the grill to burn off the coating, that might be considered damage.

Most of my strippers go on to the HF 1x30 for serious edge reprofiling. At that point, it is fair to assume that I own my own warranty. But, AFAIK, that has never really been explicitly stated to be the case.
 
No worries Tom...I love debating with you both here and at home...:thumbup:

I also would love to hear the ultimate answers to 2 great questions you've raised...one of which I'm pretty confident can't be answered...the other I feel I'm 99% sure I know the answer to without anything official...

#1. What causes the pits / dimpling of INFI to begin with? I bet that one is proprietary info. and will never be answered

#2. Does stripping void Busse & Kin's warranty? Think about it from Busse's point of view, any definitive public answer they give one way or the other has got potential to cause them mucho grief. So I could understand if they don't reply. Having said that I haven't searched the entire database to see if it's been answered officially, either. Offhand, I'm sure they gotta investigate everything on a case by case basis.

I think the legend is that only ONE Busse has ever been rejected for warranty coverage so I'd say there's real good odds some stripped Busses have come into play and been covered since there's so many in usage...

But I haven't been around long enough to speak with authority on this...so one of you HOGS sound off.....please :o ...thank you! :)
 
Nice thing about CG is use it, wear off some finish then strip it and give it a Scotchbrite going over. If I were making blades for sale and it had a coated finish the adhesion factor would make the non surface ground steel ideal. Then again, I can't afford the satin models, and after a few trips they would look rough anyway. I tried the high road when I had the funds but I like the performance of a coated knife being used vs a satin in the safe.
 
My answers are in BOLD. . . .


PeteyTwoPointOne said:
No worries Tom...I love debating with you both here and at home...:thumbup:

I also would love to hear the ultimate answers to 2 great questions you've raised...one of which I'm pretty confident can't be answered...the other I feel I'm 99% sure I know the answer to without anything official...

#1. What causes the pits / dimpling of INFI to begin with? I bet that one is proprietary info. and will never be answered

It's the Chuck Norris thing.


#2. Does stripping void Busse & Kin's warranty? Think about it from Busse's point of view, any definitive public answer they give one way or the other has got potential to cause them mucho grief. So I could understand if they don't reply. Having said that I haven't searched the entire database to see if it's been answered officially, either. Offhand, I'm sure they gotta investigate everything on a case by case basis.

I think the legend is that only ONE Busse has ever been rejected for warranty coverage

NEVER ONE REJECTED! . . .


so I'd say there's real good odds some stripped Busses have come into play and been covered since there's so many in usage...

But I haven't been around long enough to speak with authority on this...so one of you HOGS sound off.....please :o ...thank you! :)
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