Shootout: CPM-S90V vs CTS-20CP

wongKI said:
What's a "bar" Jim? Unit for pressure, or something else we should know about?

Thanks for everything once again:)
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Bar is the quench rating of the furnaces, the higher the number the faster it is.
 
Ankerson said:
That's their label for the 2nd generation PM process they use, finer and cleaner than 1st generation, Bohler uses 3rd generation, even finer and more refined.
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Hey Ankerson,
Sorry that this is a little off topic, but I was wondering, with what you said about Bohler. Is the n680 that Benchmade is using in some of their current knives, a 3rd Gen PM steel?
 
ohmyheckinslc said:
Hey Ankerson,
Sorry that this is a little off topic, but I was wondering, with what you said about Bohler. Is the n680 that Benchmade is using in some of their current knives, a 3rd Gen PM steel?
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No, they aren't PM steels. :)
 
Cool post again. Shouldn't you have a degree in steels by now after all this testing :)
 
This thread has me scheming on one of these 20Cp Paras to go with the Missus's S90V peel-ply CF mail-opening device. The grey handles look better than I imagined they would. These are priced reasonably & I've seen a few for sale already. Mine will be auditioned by a friend to cut duct board in AC installs, something this steel should excel in. He uses AUS-8 & 154CM all day & I want to hear his impressions.

3rd Gen PM technology has the makings of a buzzword around here already. I don't remember the 2nd Generation steels. I'm very pleased to see the PM carbide monsters getting more fine-grained. Refined edge snobs seem to be getting the best of both worlds now with steels like Elmax, M390, & CPM154.

One thing I have noticed is the happy trend of PM versions of existing steels coming out (multiple PM D2s, 154CM, BG42). It seems like everyone suddenly started catering to steel heads in the past 3 years or so. It's a good time to be into this stuff.
 
I have a question on this ......... if S90V and CTS20CP are comparable in keeping there edge etc. ......... Then why is CTS so much cheaper in cost ??
I mean both knives are para milis ......... why is it so much cheaper ?
Thanks in advance ........... dj
 
djdawgdj@aol.com said:
I have a question on this ......... if S90V and CTS20CP are comparable in keeping there edge etc. ......... Then why is CTS so much cheaper in cost ??
I mean both knives are para milis ......... why is it so much cheaper ?
Thanks in advance ........... dj
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20CP is slightly less expensive and it's G10 instead of Carbon Fiber for the S90V knife.
 
I do appreciate your input and knowledge on this stuff very much ............ I suppose CF over G-10 is a big enough difference.
I just didnt give that aspect much thought .........
Again thank you ................... dj
 
ohmyheckinslc said:
Hey Ankerson,
Sorry that this is a little off topic, but I was wondering, with what you said about Bohler. Is the n680 that Benchmade is using in some of their current knives, a 3rd Gen PM steel?
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N680, have to say that's one steel that really suprised me . I bought a 111 and didn't expect much but it does dam good. Now if the 111 is all rust proof I dunno ,called benchmade to ask what liner steel is used after being on hold awhile they hung up on me . But in my use n680 outpreforms h1
 
djdawgdj@aol.com said:
I have a question on this ......... if S90V and CTS20CP are comparable in keeping there edge etc. ......... Then why is CTS so much cheaper in cost ??
I mean both knives are para milis ......... why is it so much cheaper ?
Thanks in advance ........... dj
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It also might be that this steel has no history yet and Carpenter priced it lower. I heard Spyderco purchased this CTS-20CP 3 yrs ago.
 
skwurll said:
It also might be that this steel has no history yet and Carpenter priced it lower. I heard Spyderco purchased this CTS-20CP 3 yrs ago.
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I would not be surprised if that were true...in fact, I'd be surprised if it weren't true. S90V has a track record (and lack of competition) that has allowed Crucible to price it accordingly.
 
JNewell said:
I would not be surprised if that were true...in fact, I'd be surprised if it weren't true. S90V has a track record (and lack of competition) that has allowed Crucible to price it accordingly.
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The Competition has been there for S90V....

M390 has been around for awhile, the problems are:

1. No production manufacture has put out a M390 blade over 60 HRC and that handicaps the steel a lot...... Well it's not optimal lets say.

2. Getting more manufacturers to use it and getting a HTer that is used to working with Bohler Steels and has a vacuum furnace that can hold 2150 degrees and has at least a 4 Bar rating.

3. More testing needs to be done on M390 at higher hardness (61 HRC+) and once that is done the true potential of the steel will be realised.


M390 really needs to be in the 61-62 HRC range and that will put it right around S90V edge retention wise, even at 60 HRC it's getting there.

S90V at 60 HRC is optimal.

60 HRC for M390 isn't really optimal for that steel.

M390 can be pushed all the way to 63 HRC for customs, Production blades really should be in the 61-62 HRC range or 61 HRC really.
 
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I wonder also if US manufacturers find it a little easier to work with a domestic supplier? Dunno, just a thought. Either way, more competition is likely only to be good for us as users.
 
Really curious to find out what the HRC of this 20CP is and what the Sprint S90v's are.
 
Ankerson said:
The Competition has been there for S90V....

M390 has been around for awhile, the problems are:

1. No production manufacture has put out a M390 blade over 60 HRC and that handicaps the steel a lot...... Well it's not optimal lets say.

2. Getting more manufacturers to use it and getting a HTer that is used to working with Bohler Steels and has a vacuum furnace that can hold 2150 degrees and has at least a 4 Bar rating.

3. More testing needs to be done on M390 at higher hardness (61 HRC+) and once that is done the true potential of the steel will be realised.


M390 really needs to be in the 61-62 HRC range and that will put it right around S90V edge retention wise, even at 60 HRC it's getting there.

S90V at 60 HRC is optimal.

60 HRC for M390 isn't really optimal for that steel.

M390 can be pushed all the way to 63 HRC for customs, Production blades really should be in the 61-62 HRC range or 61 HRC really.
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This is actually reassuring. That less-than optimal M390 made it into the second category in your test. It's already in an elite class running two points too soft. Due to your activities I'm looking into having my M390 blades mailed off to be brought up to 62 or so. Would you be interested in giving them a whirl if I manage this?
 
jeffphansen77 said:
This is actually reassuring. That less-than optimal M390 made it into the second category in your test. It's already in an elite class running two points too soft. Due to your activities I'm looking into having my M390 blades mailed off to be brought up to 62 or so. Would you be interested in giving them a whirl if I manage this?
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I already know what it will do at 62, cut with a few.
 
Ankerson said:
I already know what it will do at 62, cut with a few.
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Yes, but you yourself said you couldn't rank your Phil Wilson custom due to the extremely thin edge geometry giving it less starting force than the 15 lbs you normally look for. If the Rc 62 blade was at an edge geometry within an acceptable range, wouldn't that be worth putting on the board?

I personally find I like M390 even more than S90V and similar steels except perhaps when cutting cardboard. It seems to take and keep a razor edge much longer than the other high vanadium steels, as well as S30V. Certainly, it seems like a waste of time to put a mirror finish on those steels. When you're not cutting anything as abrasive as cardboard and the like, the wear resistance of S90V(and similar) aren't noticeable. Even cutting only cardboard(though not the only thing I did during my 8 hour shifts) I found the working edge was more than satisfactory for the better part of 3 months.

I think I see the true appeal of M390. There isn't another stainless steel that really comes to mind when I think of one that takes and holds a razor edge like a carbon steel. Not as tough sure, but the edge it takes isn't lost with a mere few cuts. I went through 20 cases of corn on Friday with my M390 BM 581, and the edge lasted quite a while. My R.J. Martin Overkill in S110V never really had that "air bleeding" sharpness to it, and it dulled to the same level as my M390 blade after about 2-3 cases.

That's not to say M390 has better edge retention than S110V, as I'm sure the difference between the two will be obvious after about 50 cases of corn each. Just that M390 takes a razor edge easier, and likes to hold onto it stubbornly as well. It would be interesting if someone took it one step further to refine the grain structure with a nitrogen 3rd gen PM steel that has 9% vanadium, but only enough chromium to ensure a decent level of stain resistance. I'm thinking Vanax 35 and 75 have too much chromium that would make big chromium nitrides, so those might not take well to a razor edge.
 
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