Short article on Snake Bite Kits

A friend of mine has been bit twice by copperheads and at the time he was living way isoloated with no car.

He said that whiskey was what got him thru it. He just stayed drunk until the swelling and pain went down.

One time was when he was sleeping in an open shelter.

Spooky, my buddy who is an ER doctor said he had a guy that had a copperhead bite and wasn't severely affected and I'm thinking he said the bill for the antivenom he received was in the neighborhood of 30,000.

Al
 
Yeah, isn't there some issue with the less severe copperhead bites being given antivenin just like more severe rattlesnake bites, and that people are looking into alternative treatment for "minor" copperhead bites?
 
Have I missed it, or what is the recommended procedure for snake bites in the US?

Here in Australia we recommend a compression bandage starting from the top of the limb to the extremity gradually getting slightly tighter. Avoid moving the muscle as much as possible. What they teach us at uni is that the venom enters the interstitial space (between blood vessels) and can not pass back into the bloodstream. The trick is to stop the flow of lymph. You know that feeling of pins and needles you get when you sit funny, that's due to a build up of lymph. Muscle movement helps pump the lymph back to lymph nodes etc and eventually back to the bloodstream.

Never suck/clean the wound as supposedly this can be used to ID the snake. While swallowed venom is probably denatured in the acid of the stomach, I wouldn't like to find out.

Basically if you can stop/slow the flow of lymph and you know what type of snake bit you and can get medical attention quickly, that is all you can do.

Hope that information is useful to those who aren't sure, but again this is only what the advice is in Oz, not sure what the medical authorities elsewhere say.

Chris
 
EMT_Lee said:
Well, that might be true. I'm certainly no venom or snake expert. However, it doesnt really make sense to me. I mean, you can give medicine via sublingual route (under the tongue) and the medicine passes through the oral mucosa and enters into your bloodstream. I would imagine that snake venom would do much the same thing. Granted, you would have to hold it in your mouth, but still.

Also, even if that is not the case, I dont want to risk the fact that I might have bitten my gum in my sleep, didnt realize it, and now have a small open wound inside my mouth for the venom to enter. :p

I stand by my statement: Anyone who would willfully suck venom into their mouth needs to rethink some things. :D
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This explains it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCB28pPuXtI&feature=related
 
Lycosa said:
2) Relax and get to a hospital.
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How do you do this when you drove three hours to park, hiked four hours to camp and then got bit?? And you're alone??

Somewhere else the wise person said "git yore ass to the hospital".
 
bltjr1951 said:
How do you do this when you drove three hours to park, hiked four hours to camp and then got bit?? And you're alone??

Somewhere else the wise person said "git yore ass to the hospital".
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You do it the best you can. It may be hard, but trying to stay calm is very important in this situation. If you panic, you're going to increase your heart-rate and speed up the venom circulating through your system. I know, I know... easier said than done, but still. "Try" is the keyword. :)
 
EMT_Lee said:
You do it the best you can. It may be hard, but trying to stay calm is very important in this situation. If you panic, you're going to increase your heart-rate and speed up the venom circulating through your system. I know, I know... easier said than done, but still. "Try" is the keyword. :)
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In that scenario the 4 hour hike out would probably raise your heart rate just as much, so my question would be; is it better to try the hike out, or just stay in place, stay calm, and wait it out? I thought about that scenario before, and wondered what the answer would be. You're certainly more knowledgeable than I am in that area, so what would you recommend?
 
Chris_Norden said:
Have I missed it, or what is the recommended procedure for snake bites in the US?

Here in Australia we recommend a compression bandage starting from the top of the limb to the extremity gradually getting slightly tighter. Avoid moving the muscle as much as possible. What they teach us at uni is that the venom enters the interstitial space (between blood vessels) and can not pass back into the bloodstream. The trick is to stop the flow of lymph. You know that feeling of pins and needles you get when you sit funny, that's due to a build up of lymph. Muscle movement helps pump the lymph back to lymph nodes etc and eventually back to the bloodstream.

Never suck/clean the wound as supposedly this can be used to ID the snake. While swallowed venom is probably denatured in the acid of the stomach, I wouldn't like to find out.

Basically if you can stop/slow the flow of lymph and you know what type of snake bit you and can get medical attention quickly, that is all you can do.

Hope that information is useful to those who aren't sure, but again this is only what the advice is in Oz, not sure what the medical authorities elsewhere say.

Chris
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Interesting advice from Australia.! Thanks Chris! Many of your critters are primarily Neurotoxic as far as venom type. Here, with Hemotoxic (Cytotoxic) keeping the venom in one area can result in some bad juju.
 
Thanks for that, I must admit that I wasn't aware of the differences in snake venoms. But even with cytotoxic venom, wouldn't you be better of isolating all the damage rather than letting it spread out, or is the amount of venom to little to majorly affect organs but enough to kill your leg? Bit of a shame that we will never be able to conduct a study on this to know for sure.
 
bltjr1951 said:
How do you do this when you drove three hours to park, hiked four hours to camp and then got bit?? And you're alone?
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1. Find a comfortable spot in the shade.

2. Sit down.

3. Relax.

4. Let your head hang between your knees.

5. Kiss your a$$ goodbye.
 
Chris_Norden said:
But even with cytotoxic venom, wouldn't you be better of isolating all the damage rather than letting it spread out, or is the amount of venom to little to majorly affect organs but enough to kill your leg? Bit of a shame that we will never be able to conduct a study on this to know for sure.
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I would think it has to do with the concentration of enzymes and toxins in the bite area (for hemotoxic venom).

A high concentration (due to compression and restriction of venom spread) would result in greater localized damage to tissue, while a lower concentration (due to some systemic diffusion) would result in less local necrosis. Even though you'd get hemotoxic and inflammatory effects throughout the body, you'd be spreading the damage over your entire body rather than one limb or area of tissue. Of course, with neurotoxic venom, you'd want to prevent systemic spread; luckily it isn't common for a bite to be both hemo and neurotoxic.

It is too bad no studies have been done to find out for sure.


ETA: It would be bad times though if a snake with either venom hit a vein vs. the interstitial space.
 
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wulfshrunting said:
I was under the impression that you can ingest some venom with no ill effects. The caveat is that you have no sores/cuts/etc inside your mouth/throat/stomach.

I'm not saying that anyone should drink venom, just that I saw a show about a week ago talking about rattle snakes and it said that the venom only works through blood, or something like that.
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When you ingest something, the nutrients get to the rest of your body through your bloodstream absorbed through your stomach lining....
 
Even though the snake kits might not help in getting the venom out of your body, they might help by keeping the person calm. If they think that the extractor is helping them they won't be as prone to panic.

As for ingesting the venom, everything I've ever read said it won't kill you as long as you don't have open sores in the mouth/throat/stomach. Here's an view from a Dr. in India.
The question is often asked, what would happen if one ingested the snake venom? Would he die? The answer is "no". Snake venom is a mixture of proteins which would be digested in the stomach. It is also suggested that snake venom is not absorbed from the gastric mucus membrane. However if a person is suffering from gastric ulcer, some snake venom may be absorbed through this ulcer and may pose danger to the person ingesting snake venom.
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rksoon said:
Ah! Good to know that my first experience wasn't that abnormal after all :thumbup: I was under the impression they always rattled unless you surprised them somehow. Of the other ones I have seen (4-5 in the last 5 years! vs. your 5 in the past couple of weeks T!:eek:), three of em didn't rattle but I thought it was because they were on the move.
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If they don't feel threatened then they usually don't bother to give you a warning. I've never seen one that was coiled up and felt itself in danger that didn't rattle.
 
When you ingest something, the nutrients get to the rest of your body through your bloodstream absorbed through your stomach lining....
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This is a common misconception. The acid in the stomach (especially if the stomach is empty) is strong enough to denature proteins. There are also numerous enzymes which cleave proteins into smaller polypeptide chains (fragments of the protein) and even into individual amino acids (the substituents of protein). By the time the venom (a protein) reaches the lumen of the small intestine (where the absorption takes place) I'd be VERY surprised if it wasn't degraded to a point where it was no longer toxic. Until the "nutrients" cross the lumen of the small intestine they are technically still outside the body.
Its very rare for a whole protein to be absorbed, and would be in such a small amount that only anaphylaxis would be an issue.

Chris
Chris
 
Chris_Norden said:
This is a common misconception. The acid in the stomach (especially if the stomach is empty) is strong enough to denature proteins. There are also numerous enzymes which cleave proteins into smaller polypeptide chains (fragments of the protein) and even into individual amino acids (the substituents of protein). By the time the venom (a protein) reaches the lumen of the small intestine (where the absorption takes place) I'd be VERY surprised if it wasn't degraded to a point where it was no longer toxic. Until the "nutrients" cross the lumen of the small intestine they are technically still outside the body.
Its very rare for a whole protein to be absorbed, and would be in such a small amount that only anaphylaxis would be an issue.

Chris
Chris
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Most proteins. Some proteins, like the protease pepsin in the stomach actually require the environment to be acidic to be activated from its zymogen form. But nutrient absorption does indeed mostly occurs in the jejunum and ileum, and the peptidases and amino peptidases in the duodenum do completely denaturate and disassemble partially cleaved proteins before they reach the rest of the small intestine. So yeah, even if the protein did manage to survive the acidic environment of the stomach, it most likely wouldn't make it to absorption.

Are all toxins in venom proteinaceous? Substances like aspirin and alcohol are absorbed directly through the stomach wall and enter the bloodstream before reaching the small intestine. If a toxin in the venom isn't protein based, there is still a possibility it could be absorbed in the stomach. *shrug*

In general though, I feel like most of the dangerous toxins in venom are enzymes and polypeptides, so yeah you probably won't have issues if they are ingested.

BlackHills said:
If they don't feel threatened then they usually don't bother to give you a warning. I've never seen one that was coiled up and felt itself in danger that didn't rattle.
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Yeah, I've been doing some reading on it, and actually it seems that most of the time they won't rattle at all. It seems they might prefer to let a potential danger pass-by and not make any noise at all, so as not draw attention to themselves. A few papers seemed to suggest that the rattle was more of a fear response, a "please don't step on me" thing rather than a "I'm gonna mess you up foo!" kinda thing. Maybe the herpes can chime in with the truth :D
 
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rksoon said:
Yeah, I've been doing some reading on it, and actually it seems that most of the time they won't rattle at all. It seems they might prefer to let a potential danger pass-by and not make any noise at all, so as not draw attention to themselves. A few papers seemed to suggest that the rattle was more of a fear response, a "please don't step on me" thing rather than a "I'm gonna mess you up foo!" kinda thing. Maybe the herpes can chime in with the truth :D
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I would agree with that. They won't rattle at something they can eat, only at something that might hurt them. I always thought of it as a "Here I am, don't bother me" response. I used to work at a place where we had lots of rattlers come up at night to lay on the concrete and we'd find them in the morning. They all rattled at us when we got close but I never saw one even attempt a strike because we left them alone.
 
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