Short article on Snake Bite Kits

BlackHills said:
I used to work at a place where we had lots of rattlers come up at night to lay on the concrete and we'd find them in the morning. They all rattled at us when we got close but I never saw one even attempt a strike because we left them alone.
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Yikes, that'd suck to stumble on one in the dark of early morning :eek:
 
rksoon said:
I would think it has to do with the concentration of enzymes and toxins in the bite area (for hemotoxic venom).

A high concentration (due to compression and restriction of venom spread) would result in greater localized damage to tissue, while a lower concentration (due to some systemic diffusion) would result in less local necrosis. Even though you'd get hemotoxic and inflammatory effects throughout the body, you'd be spreading the damage over your entire body rather than one limb or area of tissue. Of course, with neurotoxic venom, you'd want to prevent systemic spread; luckily it isn't common for a bite to be both hemo and neurotoxic.

It is too bad no studies have been done to find out for sure.


ETA: It would be bad times though if a snake with either venom hit a vein vs. the interstitial space.
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That certainly wouldn't be the case if a clot hits your lungs or your brain. Its a double edged sword. Keeping the venom isolated localizes and magnifies whatever effects it might have, while allowing it to circulate systemically may effectively dilute the potency of the venom but exposes much more vital systems to damage.
 
Funny, I just read this article. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090522/D98BFELO0.html

CHEYENNE, Wyo. (AP) - A man said he saved his dog's life after sucking venom from a rattlesnake bite out of the animal's nose. Bobby Jenkins said he began feeling ill after getting his dog, Tank, to a veterinarian. He went to the hospital and received a dose of antivenin.

In all, Jenkins needed four vials of antivenin at a cost of $3,500 per vial.

Meanwhile, Jenkins said his dog's head swelled up to three times its normal size. Tank had been bitten after running under some equipment on the family ranch.

The dog also received antivenin and both Jenkins and his dog have recovered.
 
rksoon said:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124208165196508345.html

This is an interesting little article on the subject. I remember asking the same question of our resident herpetologists a while ago, and the responses were generally the same IIRC.

I used to carry one of those Sawyer kits because I thought it was better than nothing, but I have removed it from my daypack for a while now. I can't find enough evidence yet to justify adding it to the FAK. Those two studies mentioned in the article sound interesting, I should dig em up :).
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Snake fangs are designed like hypodermic needles for a reason - to pierce deep enough into the victim's flesh to deliver the venom at high pressure, into an area where it will be rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream.

Basically, I cannot imagine that a vacuum-kit would be any more useful in getting the venom out, compared to rinsing the wound with plenty of water.

Usually, by the time such measures are applied, the venom has already been either absorbed, or has leaked out of the wound.

As for a scalpel in a bite kit - I can hardly imagine a worse idea - if you think that there is still venom in the wound - would you really want to open up more ways for it to get into the blood?
 
While in the country, 22 shooting, there was a piece of plywood used as target. When I walked up to set it up, I heard a rattler sound off under it. My shooting buddy couldn't hear it, so I turned plywood over, then he could see it all coiled up and buzzing. The kids then proceeded to shoot it dead.
 
CaptInsano said:
That certainly wouldn't be the case if a clot hits your lungs or your brain. Its a double edged sword. Keeping the venom isolated localizes and magnifies whatever effects it might have, while allowing it to circulate systemically may effectively dilute the potency of the venom but exposes much more vital systems to damage.
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Probably yes, but the same could be same of any injury (physical trauma or otherwise) that might put a clot in the bloodstream. And you might be exposing more vital systems, but if it is indeed diluted to a large extent I would think any damage would be negligible to the overall function of the organ. ETA: Maybe it's like giving a mouse or a cell culture some toxic agent, above a certain toxin-dependent threshold, the tissue/cells cannot deal with the toxin and either go through necrosis or apoptosis. Under a certain threshold, enough damage may be caused to initiate survival pathways, but not enough to overwhelm those pathways.

Also, aren't some snake toxins (pit vipers) under study for their anti-coagulant effects? I know that some parts of venom are being studied for use in Strokes and other such clot-caused injuries. I'll dig em up later.
 
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kdstrick said:
Funny, I just read this article. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090522/D98BFELO0.html

CHEYENNE, Wyo. (AP) - A man said he saved his dog's life after sucking venom from a rattlesnake bite out of the animal's nose. Bobby Jenkins said he began feeling ill after getting his dog, Tank, to a veterinarian. He went to the hospital and received a dose of antivenin.
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Could have been the placebo effect again, but in the negative direction this time. He sucks on his dog's wound, and starts convincing his body he should be feeling sick. Or the bite could have been glancing, and maybe he did actually get some in his mouth while having an open cut in his mouth, so he actually did get a little in his bloodstream. Hard to know, especially since the article said "Jenkins said he began feeling ill" instead of "the physician observed signs of evenomation." I'd rather not test the theory out :D

Thomas Linton said:
Here are a couple of articles. The first found that the Sawyer removed 38.5/89895 parts of venom analog -- .043% (.043 OF 1%) -- pretty trivial.
http://www.fresno.ucsf.edu/em/posters/alberts_snake_bite.pdf

The second is from the Journals of Emergency Medicine.
http://www.mdconsult.com/das/articl...rnal&source=&sp=N&sid=0/N/400102/1.html?issn=

Maybe you could give the victim a "snakebite pill" (Tums or the like) to achieve the placebo effect without the tissue damage.
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Thomas, good stuff! Thanks for the links. I was thinking about that too, earlier, giving a pill or something to provide placebo effect without the damage :thumbup: The second paper you linked, is one cited in the OP article. I have the Alberts paper (presented in that poster in the first link) if you want it too.

gnius said:
As for a scalpel in a bite kit - I can hardly imagine a worse idea - if you think that there is still venom in the wound - would you really want to open up more ways for it to get into the blood?
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Definitely. :thumbup:
 
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Capt:

Ancrod (will be marketed as "Viprinex")

Ischaemic stroke occurs in over 500,000 US residents each year. Most strokes are due to embolic or thrombotic occlusion of an artery to the brain. Strategies to reduce thrombus formation and to improve blood flow in the compromised arterial bed have been have been a major focus of management with the goal of improving the outcome of ischaemic stroke. Ancrod is a biological agent extracted from the venom of the Malayan pit viper that reduces blood fibrinogen levels. This action prolongs blood clot formation and lowers blood viscosity. Ancrod has been studied in a variety of ischaemic conditions including stroke. The clinical studies of ancrod in patients with stroke have shown a benefit with ancrod treatment in neurological outcome with only a modest increase in bleeding risk.
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Abstract
PMID: 12365829

JAMA paper on Ancrod, 2000:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/283/18/2395

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00300196



One example, must be a couple more out there. I don't know how closely related the venom of the Malayan Pit Viper is to the American Pit Vipers, but the concept is there. :thumbup:


ETA: I know, I know. I could be generalizing, I don't know if all snake venom has anti-coagulant effects. :o
 
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rksoon said:
Probably yes, but the same could be same of any injury (physical trauma or otherwise) that might put a clot in the bloodstream. And you might be exposing more vital systems, but if it is indeed diluted to a large extent I would think any damage would be negligible to the overall function of the organ. ETA: Maybe it's like giving a mouse or a cell culture some toxic agent, above a certain toxin-dependent threshold, the tissue/cells cannot deal with the toxin and either go through necrosis or apoptosis. Under a certain threshold, enough damage may be caused to initiate survival pathways, but not enough to overwhelm those pathways.
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The answer, as with a lot of things, depends. Systemic distribution of a substance that works at a cellular level might decrease its potency under certain circumstances. However, systemic distribution of a substance that acts on specific cells that then act on entire systems would not be desirable. For example, if a substance causing clotting was isolated to a foot, that might be the end of that foot. A lot of clotting in a small area would effectively kill it. If a substance causing clotting was distributed systemically, a little clotting in a lot of places could easily cause death. Even if a clot formed in an area that wasn't necessarily detrimental at the moment, it could easily travel somewhere it would be immediately detrimental. Not only that, but it sets the body up for an even worse condition. Let's say this coagulant venom is distributed systemically. Now the resources necessary for clotting are busy clotting up inappropriately where they aren't supposed to and doing varying amounts of damage. But as that is happening there aren't enough resources to to clot the blood when and where it needs to be clotted. If its bad enough, you can clot up and bleed out all at the same time. Good times!
 
CaptInsano said:
The answer, as with a lot of things, depends.
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Yup! As always :)

CaptInsano said:
Not only that, but it sets the body up for an even worse condition. Let's say this coagulant venom is distributed systemically. Now the resources necessary for clotting are busy clotting up inappropriately where they aren't supposed to and doing varying amounts of damage. But as that is happening there aren't enough resources to to clot the blood when and where it needs to be clotted. If its bad enough, you can clot up and bleed out all at the same time. Good times!
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You're talking about "consumptive coagulopathy" right?

Seems that it's a feature of elapid venom primarily, but yes, I could see it being a problem :thumbup:

Ah! More on procoagulant proteins in snake venom:
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteD...be=227542&ProduktNr=224034&filename=48066.pdf
http://www.thieme-connect.com/ejournals/pdf/sth/doi/10.1055/s-0029-1214152.pdf
 
Good paper on the subject:

A wide variety of venom components can act as procoagulants, causing in-vivo activation of the coagulation system, but in most cases, this does not result in massive thrombosis and consequent embolic disease, but rather causes consumption of coagulation factors, resulting in clinical anticoagulation (White, 2004a and Markland, 1998). This may cause profound abnormalities of clinical laboratory tests, but unless there is some bleeding point, may not result in clinically significant bleeding (White, 2004a and Warrell et al., 1977). However, this should not be misinterpreted as therefore of small clinical significance; these patients are but a small step away from a catastrophic haemorrhage.
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Australian elapids are amongst the most potent in causing procoagulant coagulopathy, though not all species cause this effect ...
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Experiments in dogs have shown that for brown snake (Pseudonaja) envenoming, there can be a brief period of true coagulation, with thrombus formation, as the venom first reaches the circulation and before fibrinolysis is activated (Tibballs et al., 1991 and Tibballs et al., 1992). The resultant thrombi can occlude critical vessels, notably coronary vessels, resulting in cardiac arrythmias and arrest. These thrombi are quickly destroyed once fibrinolysis activates, but even a few minutes of such thrombotic complications can be devastating for the victim. It is likely that this brief thrombotic window is the cause of the well documented cases of early cardiac collapse following brown snake bite, unhappily a cause of fatalities which no amount of antivenom can prevent, because this is generally a pre-hospital phenomenon (White, 2000). Potentially, of course, if injected intravenously, most procoagulant venoms could cause a cardiac catastrophe, as was shown many years ago for tiger snake (Notechis) venom, with massive coagulation of blood in the heart causing immediate and irremediable cardiac standstill in animals as large as sheep
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"Snake venoms and coagulopathy"
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...rid=4430&md5=43b33e0dc324217618f28fed6d633701
 
rksoon said:
You're talking about "consumptive coagulopathy" right?

Seems that it's a feature of elapid venom primarily, but yes, I could see it being a problem :thumbup:
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You could see it as the consumptive coagulopathy aspect of DIC related to envenomation.
 
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