Should the Rescued Individual Pay for SARS?

[KEmSAT-Survival]

Should SAR be able charge?

Depends...are they a for-profit organization now? Or are they still a not-for-profit? Taxpayer funded? If so, then they already get paid...not the taxpayers' fault that the state .gov decides to slight the guys who save people's asses so that they can buy new Tahoes or spend it on some other worthless "project".

That's the downside about making an organization that assists/saves people. You see a lot more stupid human tricks than qualified shitstorms--and those begin to color your frame of reference.
Now cops decide which calls to respond to, because some old lady decides that a dog dropping a deuce in her prized Petunias is emergency, criminal negligence kind of stuff. "To protect and serve...unless you're a dumbass."
And SAR gets called away from their kids at 3am on Christmas Eve to rescue some dipstick who thought just because he saw Les Stroud do it on Channel 27 a few times, that he could build a snow cave and didn't know when to quit--or that he shouldn't be doing it at all.

It boils down to three things: people who don't have sense enough to take care of themselves, people who are always waiting for somebody to save them, and people who don't know when to turn around and go home.

Should SAR get paid?

Yes, no, hell I don't know. I think they should get a reward everytime they save a kid's life.

But then again, I think service men and women should be exempt from taxes FOREVER and given a house once they get back. So...yeah...I'm rambling again.

 

[mkhop]

We bail out thiefs and bunglers every day spending big bucks doing so, yet some poor smuck misses a step on the trail and we make him bankrupt . If there is gross neglect or reckless disregard for safety maybe make them pay.

 

[jw2n]

The kid had some decent training under his belt, he seemed to be well prepared with gear and food, he checked in with the lodge, that trail is no problem to do in a day, so he should not have to pay. I bet that the fact that he was fine when they found him had something to do with it. If he had been half-dead I wonder if the decision would have been different. I get tired of the constant attempt to siphon money out of everyone's pocket. I was in a car accident many years ago. When I started getting my medical bills I noticed that I was double billed for the ambulance. I contacted the hospital in order to straighten it out, and was told that two ambulances were dispatched. Only one was requested, and needed. I had to pay for the second one anyway.

 

[redpoint]

I totally agree with the article. As a Canadian, I pay a lot in taxes so I expect free SAR if I needed to be rescued. If you abuse your body with drugs, alcohol, fatty foods etc. does the healthcare system charge you [in Canada] - nope ... that's far more expensive and just as negligent. If you're a chronic shitty driver and constantly get into accidents, do you get charged for paramedics [in Canada] - nope. SAR should just be part of the social safety net. Politicians squander 100s of millions every year on total BS, saving lives should be a no-brainer.

If people know they're going to get charged for SAR, they'll call when it's almost too late, the rescue becomes exponentially more complex. I used to work SAR for the Canadian Coast Guard and almost all the calls were the result of total negligence, but shit happens and I was always glad to help. In Canada, all boaters are subject to fines for not carrying the required safety gear onboard their vessel. Like the guy who had three kids with no PFD/Lifejackets for them b/c after buying the new outboard he couldn't afford the PFDs - priorities! Same should apply to the backcountry, perhaps starting in Provincial/State/National Parks. And people should be educated: post a big ass sign at the trail head that asks: "are you prepared" and then details what you should have with you.

The volunteer-based North Shore Rescue group in Vancouver [mentioned in the article] does great work and they have their work cut-out for them. The North Shore is where the full-on mountains begin and they're unforgiving, but also adjacent to a 3 million+ metropolis. The vast majority of their cases deal with negligence. If they charged for rescues or the government charged for rescues, I would imagine that the number of deaths would skyrocket. Last weekend a gentleman who had just moved to Vancouver, was killed [in the North Shore mtns] when he got caught on steep ice-covered slopes wearing snowshoes. He slipped and fell 1100 feet. Was he negligent - absolutely, he should have been wearing crampons and carrying an ice axe in those conditions ... not wearing snowshoes on bulletproof ice. What needs to happen is education: at school, at the trailhead, at equipment rental kiosks etc. It's just a sad example of a situation where someone was trying to have a fun, healthy day in the mountains, but made a poor route decision given his experience and equipment.

As said above, I think spot checks would be great in Parks with a fine schedule. People tend to react when it affects their wallet. I also think that people who are abusing drugs/alcohol and then require SAR - should be charged. Being negligent is one thing, but being half-cut and negligent is another. E.g. climbing and boozing don't go together. If at the very least, governments just can't make it work, then I think insurance might help: I'd easily pay $25, $50, $100/year if I knew I wouldn't get slapped with a $25K SAR bill, I also wouldn't think twice about tasking SAR to rescue my ass.

 

[Oregon Knife Guy]

What needs to happen is education: at school, at the trailhead, at equipment rental kiosks etc.

That is exactaly right! We need to have survival class offered in high school. It comes down to being prepared and education can ready people for that.

If you are worried about it buy a GPS locator beacon and they give you insurace of 100K. check it out...
http://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=104

If I make a bonehead mistake and catch my house on fire, does the fire department send me a bill for the water and equipment used? No, they don't because I pay taxes. This is a service that I pay for.

So who is to pay when an elder walks out into the woods? Or a man with down syndrom walks out the back door? Is this going to be a case by case basis? Do we have a group of people who make the decision? How much does the govornment pay them? How much time would be taken up in the courts which are already backed up with legitimate issues, let alone ones that should never have made it, McDonalds Coffe....

 

[hollowdweller]

I think dont' think it should be charged to the person.

However if there is enough of a problem with it that these sort of things are actually causing some budgetary shortfall then some means of financing should be done.

 

[dartanyon]

Do the people who undertake the necessary training, plan and prepare for their adventure into the wilderness require rescue? My opinion is, rarely.
In the workplace we are required to take necessary training before attempting operations that have potential to put us at risk.
Planning and preparation, is that too much to ask? Sure incidents occur that require rescue, but the idiots can be weeded out or PAY FOR THEIR IGNORANCE. Back to an inquiry.

 

[C_Kyle]

But then again, I think service men and women should be exempt from taxes FOREVER and given a house once they get back. So...yeah...I'm rambling again.

I like that! I stepped off the plane and had to bum a ride back to the barracks. Nobody was even there to say welcome back.

 

[C_Kyle]

I have a biased view on this subject, since SAR came to get me a few months back. Now, lucky for me, in my county (and possibly all of FL??) SAR/Emergency Services are services, that we all pay for in taxes. So, no bill for 5 hours of a bird searching for me, 12 vehicles, and a crap load of SAR guys.

Do I think I should have to pay for SAR? NO! I repeatedly requested that they just wait for me at the parking lot, and I'd come to them. But no, they had to do it their way, with helicopters, 3 fire trucks full of guys, a bunch of Deputies, and who knows what else.

Ultimately, SAR rendered no aid, except for half a bottle of water. I still think it was a huge waste of resources just to get to me, when I could have come to them, or once the bird located me, they could have sent 2 EMTs.

I'm not ungrateful. I'm very proud of our guys in Marion County, FL, putting forth such a huge effort to get to me, and I'm very thankful.

I think SAR should be a tax-paid service, just like other Emergency Services. Now, fraud and trickery is a different story. Those instances should be hammered to the fullest extent of the law.

 

[C_Kyle]

Do the people who undertake the necessary training, plan and prepare for their adventure into the wilderness require rescue? My opinion is, rarely.

It does happen. My rule of thumb: If you think you're going to die, a call for rescue is warranted. With my incident, I though I was in the process of dying; but, ultimately was able to get out on my own two feet, with the SAR guys walking along with me; not undamaged, though.

 

[dipbait]

I have a feeling that one of these days Im gonna be the idiot that needs rescuing.

 

[dartanyon]

fraud and trickery is a different story. Those instances should be hammered to the fullest extent of the law.

wulfshrunting ... how do we identify them?

 

[dartanyon]

SAR is necessary and I am grateful for its existance if we are lucky enough to have it. Because if we venture out into the wilderness an any way shape or form, there is the risk. Simply living has its risks but we shouldn't be doing things without some form of guidance. We are taught how to cross the road safely ... yep even taught to wash our hands after the toilet ... I hope.

 

[Oregon Knife Guy]

Do the people who undertake the necessary training, plan and prepare for their adventure into the wilderness require rescue? My opinion is, rarely.

I disagree, even the most knowledgable of people can have something happen. One may also look at it this way, a person who believes themselves knowledgable may believe they can do something thats more than they bite off. I would say in most instances, people who know nothing about survival are going to be the ones that don't stray from the trail...
The guys who climb Mt. Hood that need rescue every year think that they are knowledgable enough to get themselves out with no problem.

As the head of SAR in my county just said to me when I asked him about this debate, he said, "hell no, it is a service".

FYI, at least here, when a helicopter goes airborn, it's typically National Guard... The gov. covers that cost not SAR.

 

[Mannlicher]

Here's one for you guys. Say I live 30 minutes out of town and someone breaks into my house, and let's say fir all intensive purposes that I have no gun or any weapon and two guys start beating the crap out of me and tearing my house apart. I manage to get a call out, the cops come up and save me, my wife and house. They have to drive 30 minutes to get there and use x amount in gas, plus the hours it takes him when all reports are done, should I have to pay for the fees involved?
Or how about if someone runs out onto a road where I am driving, they say their friend has a busted leg and they are in a canyon 3 miles from the road. What is my hourly rate? Let's get real people.
My point is, where does it stop? Sometimes situations are out of our control. We should not be penalized for that. This is why there are budgets for SAR in most counties.

My point exactly, before I was informed be a cretin, that I was uneducated. :jerkit:

 

[Iboschi]

Let's keep personal attacks out of this, so that we might have an informed discussion. Isn't our purpose here (This Very Forum) to share information for the betterment of all? Let's not lose sight of what is important, eachother.

 

[chuck buck]

if i ask you to save me and agree to charge yes. if its their own good will... no.

 

[LMT66]

After the direction other threads similar to this went, I don't see how this type of thread is of any use in W&SS or advances our skills.

 

[steelheadr]

As has been said before, charging a fee increases the risk that a needed call for help might be delayed to the point that the eventual rescue changes into a recover exercise...everyone loses.

Also, when I am paying for a service, I have expectations as to the capabilities of those providing this service and the likely outcomes of the service. Of course, in the backcountry, I understand the risks and accept them or I stay home. Those that only infrequently venture beyond the reach of urban EMS often don't understand their own skills and abilities. Letting another responsible party in on their plans is important.

If they don't undertand their own limitations, might the parties involved expect a paid rescue to safely bring home the person in need of assistance? When this doesn't happen successfully, what is the liablilty of the SAR organization and members? Would you be a SAR member if you could be exposed to a lawsuit because you brought back a dead body instead of a live one?

This is an issue that won't likely ever be resolved with our current system. I don't have any groundbreaking suggestions myself. I appreciate the way SAR is typically handled in places I've lived. I hope that if I'm needing this type of assistance, whether self-inflicted or unlucky, the local SAR teams are ready to go as the notice is sent.

Let me thank them now for whatever they do for me.

Jay

 

[Calebklyne]

after a lengthy debate last time this topic was brought up i would say they shouldnt have to pay but i think it would be good to have more public education on the subject, the majority of hikers(over 95%) in the areas i have been are generally without a knife or some form of tool that would help them if needed and they are often without knowledge of the areas or sufficient tools/water/food that would be needed to prevent rescue in the first place or allow them to be safe until rescue would arrive