Shouldn't Knifes Be Cheap?

The steel is the relatively low-end 13Cr8Mov, which I would put on par with 440A or AUS8. A serviceable, but soft steel. Hard to get a hair-splitting edge on, but typical for a $30-$35 knife.
8Cr13MoV. It has more carbon and less chromium than 440A, and is close to AUS8. Hardness tests on blades have consistently come back around 61. Wear resistance is not comparable to vanadium or tungsten steels, but that does make it very easy to sharpen to hair-whittling edges.
 
who cares? Everything that forms will eventually fall apart and crumble away, even the Himalayas. Nothing is permanent so why care? Buy what you want but realise that everything is already decaying (albeit sometimes slow). No need to feel bad about it. It's the nature of all things. If you have money and you want to spend it on something or someone you feel the need to spend it on feel free to do so. Your lifespan is way too short to waist valuable time and energy to think about trivial things like i just did....

Who is the luckiest man, the dead man with 100 maxam knives or the dead man with 100 Warenski's (or whatever)?

Carpe Diem....
 
8Cr13MoV. It has more carbon and less chromium than 440A, and is close to AUS8. Hardness tests on blades have consistently come back around 61. Wear resistance is not comparable to vanadium or tungsten steels, but that does make it very easy to sharpen to hair-whittling edges.

Thanks HH, for providing some clarity on the steel used in the Tenacious. I am not a steel expert by any means, and I think your repsonse indicates that 8Cr13 steel is a cut about 440A in hardness.

It's a good knife that ranks near the top in that price category for value for the dollar. Buck Vantage is another good value there as well.
 
I have hit rocks and concrete with my Busses.... No, not on purpose either and they hold up extremely well. :)

Other knives would have taken a lot of damage or broke.
 
A knife CAN'T last so why spend large amounts of money on what is really a disposable tool?

I think this is a fantastic question, and I'm very happy that you asked it. There are plenty of analogies to be made, but I'll pick the simplest one: restaurant food. Assuming that you are ordering things of sound health value (and not junk food or dessert), $40 at any quality restaurant will buy you an excellent, enjoyable meal that will satisfy any normal person on the planet, and provide most or all of the necessary nutrition expected of any meal. After all, food has only one "purpose", which is to nourish the body.

However, food has many other "functions". It can be a pleasant treat. It can be a lavish luxury. It can be a way to bond, and a way to get work done. It can even be a way to save money. Though a $25 dinner from the healthy-meals menu at Applebee's might be adequate, I doubt anyone would consider it "equal" in any way to, say, a $250 tasting menu at one of the better restaurants in New York or Paris. It all does exactly the same thing once it gets to my stomach, but what happens before that is an entirely different experience.

Knives are the same. When you come right down to it, every part and feature of a knife is merely the supporting cast for the one-millimeter-wide edge of the blade. Nothing else really matters. And whether you've got the finest S30V, or the cheapest low-carbon rubbish from some garage forge in Shenzhen, any knife can be sharpened adequately to provide a few good cuts. Farmers and tradesmen around the world have been doing their jobs with inexpensive, non-supersteel knives for centuries, and I doubt any of them would understand all the fuss over a Seb or a Hinderer.

So if we all agree that there's really no ultimate need for a $3000, $300, or even $100 knife, why do I have so many of them? Because sometimes, I want a flute of Perrier-Jouet and a stack of caviar blinis. Sometimes, I want to wear a tailored suit and a custom-made shirt. And sometimes, I want to hear the smooth whisper and musical lockup of my Seb, or feel the elegant snap of my feather-weight Al Mar Falcon. Even if, as you say, we consider these to be "disposable" tools (an assertion with which I disagree- a careful user can get many, many years of service from a quality knife), there are plenty of people who can spend as much on a fine meal as we spend on a good folder.

Plus, some knives truly do have performance benefits. Emersons, Striders, ZTs, Crusaders, and even some Cold Steels...baton with them, stab with them, stomp on them and then put them through a sheet of steel, and there are some knives that really will take that kind of abuse. Do I need something like that? Probably not, but some people do.
 
From a work man's perspective good tools make the job much easier, faster and less prone to mishaps.

This is not really noticed unless the tool is something you depend on and use very frequently (everyday work.)

Some people in the above category use only cheap stuff and have never experienced work with quality tools. I can tell you from personal experience once you get used to using quality tools you will find work using cheap junk to be a big burdensome pain.

Whatever the product if it's something that is used frequently, important for the task, and depended on, quality is going to matter a lot.

What is funny to me is that in the knife world people have it the wrong way around. Too many working class people who don't know any better use use cheap beaters for intense work and top quality knives that would really make life easier for these people in terms of less work (better edge retention, easier safer cutting, less sharpening ect...,) reliability (safer locks, better fit and finish etc..) are collected by knife nuts such as myself who don't use them nearly enough to realize their full potential.

The message needs to somehow get out to people that rely on and use knives frequently that it is worth the investment to get a better quality knife. A quality knife will also outlast cheap stuff to the point where it becomes more economical to buy one quality knife that will last rather than 10 cheap replacements (toys) down the line.

Of course with the recent infusion of LOW PRICED TOP QUALITY knives from places like Taiwan and even China, what is quality, and what is not, (what knife to choose to buy) becomes more clouded to the average uneducated knife using worker looking for the best price. But that is another story of labor ethics and politics.

Maybe the knife nuts and collectors should own the toys and the workers the real tools.

Now for people who frequently lose their knives it is another story.

So no on advocating cheap garbage. It gives workers a hard time.
 
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I have hit rocks and concrete with my Busses.... No, not on purpose either and they hold up extremely well. :)

Other knives would have taken a lot of damage or broke.

And that is why one pay the amount of money one does for a Busse. :)

I think the following needs to be brought back to light as I think this has been the best argument through the entire thread and IMO is exactly how I feel about the matter.

Average lifespan of
computers and other gadgets such as cell phones, ipods, etc. 3 years
automobiles somewhere around 10 to 15
hand tools,

Need I continue. The average lifespan of most stuff is limited and yet cost much more than does a knife or knives for that matter. This topic has been done here a bunch I did it once myself when inquiring about folder longevity because folders by their very nature are bound to wear out quicker than fixed blades because the knife comes already broken.

You'd be suprised by the number of people that had folders they still carried and used that were over 10 years and some approaching 50 and over. Had one guys post of a picture of a sebenza one of the first I think it was like 13 years old, it was, is and remains his EDC and it still looked pretty good. The blade had worn down a little bit but not much.

What I found was that a lot of people had some pretty big expectations about folder longevity and made some very valid points as to why this is realistic. It all boiled down to these advances in materials, manufacturing, engineering and the fact that we live in modern civilized world where our EDC for the most part doesn't actually see that much use. Its not like were living in the dark ages are all living out in the woods where the knife is main tool that we count on for our survival.


Also and this ties into the advances in materials, manufacturing and engineering thing, but boutique steels, advances in heat treat (Busse, Paul Bos), cryongenics, etc, and the creation of such things as edge pro, sharp makers, et al combined with a little education as to how to properly sharpen a knife have combined to go a long way towards blade longevity beit folder of fixed.

Gone are the days where you sit with your Grand Paws wetstone and grind the blade in oblivion, plus with high end steels we've got today these knives are holding a serviceable edge for a long time. Now, if you want the thing to cut the hairs on a knats beehine, then yea your probably gonna take off a little more material that the average user. Overall though I think the whole knives should be cheap argument is completely flawed and should actually be the other way around. Knives should be expensive, if for nothing else all the things I mentioned i.e. advances in materials.

Because now you in reality most people don't need to buy more than a few good knives and in all likely hood their covered with quality cutting tools for their rest of their lives. Can't tell how many well over a $100.00 power tools, I've had crap out on me over the years and they were only around for a few years or so. Now that I think about it, all but one old circular saw hasn't last more they say a few years, probably five (5) max.

Can't get more than about five years out of a 4 wheeler either beit honda or yamaha and those dang things ain't cheap, nor are they cheap to maintain. Now that I think of it same thing goes for guns. If you spend any time shooting one your gonna shot the barrel out of it, so shouldn't they be cheap too? I don't about you but I'm not buying cheap knives are guns, as I think the old adage of you get what you pay for holds true in this arena for the most part. Also if the fit does ever hit the shan and the balloon goes up, I want the best tools I can afford so they will be durable and hopefully offer the most longevity as I won't be able to run to the store and buy more, order one online, by mail or email or phone a local maker to have one built. I'll have what I've got when the even happens and that'll probably be it for a while. So no, no, no, Knives should not be cheap.

Given the fact of what your getting these days, such as INFI, BETA TI, ZDP 189, Bos Heat Treat, etc. I think knives are inexpensive for what were getting. How does that old Vagina Slimes, err I mean Virginia Slims ad go, We've come a long way baby.
 
The message needs to somehow get out to people that rely on and use knives frequently that it is worth the investment to get a better quality knife. A quality knife will also outlast cheap stuff to the point where it becomes more economical to buy one quality knife that will last rather than 10 cheap replacements (toys) down the line.

I would bet that you couldn't beat a carbon Mora for 'value for money'. I would also bet that the edge retention on very expensive knives in not nearly twice as good as on the Mora (despite 20x the price or whatever it might be).

I think the message needs to somehow get out to people that rely on and use knives frequently that there are knives that are really good and are well within their budgets.
 
And that is why one pay the amount of money one does for a Busse. :)

I think the following needs to be brought back to light as I think this has been the best argument through the entire thread and IMO is exactly how I feel about the matter.

Yeah, I hit concrete with my Busse FFBM and got it on video, you can hear it hit it, I angled the knife too much on the 1st try, it happens, not that often, but it happens. :eek:

All it did was roll the edge a little, simple easy fix, God I love INFI. :thumbup:

[youtube]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PhnhsdC0olI&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PhnhsdC0olI&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/youtube]

This is what happened to the concrete. :D
 
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There is an old saying that rings true."Good tools ain't cheap and cheap tools ain't good".:cool:
 
I think this is a fantastic question, and I'm very happy that you asked it. There are plenty of analogies to be made, but I'll pick the simplest one: restaurant food. Assuming that you are ordering things of sound health value (and not junk food or dessert), $40 at any quality restaurant will buy you an excellent, enjoyable meal that will satisfy any normal person on the planet, and provide most or all of the necessary nutrition expected of any meal. After all, food has only one "purpose", which is to nourish the body.

However, food has many other "functions". It can be a pleasant treat. It can be a lavish luxury. It can be a way to bond, and a way to get work done. It can even be a way to save money. Though a $25 dinner from the healthy-meals menu at Applebee's might be adequate, I doubt anyone would consider it "equal" in any way to, say, a $250 tasting menu at one of the better restaurants in New York or Paris. It all does exactly the same thing once it gets to my stomach, but what happens before that is an entirely different experience.

Knives are the same. When you come right down to it, every part and feature of a knife is merely the supporting cast for the one-millimeter-wide edge of the blade. Nothing else really matters. And whether you've got the finest S30V, or the cheapest low-carbon rubbish from some garage forge in Shenzhen, any knife can be sharpened adequately to provide a few good cuts. Farmers and tradesmen around the world have been doing their jobs with inexpensive, non-supersteel knives for centuries, and I doubt any of them would understand all the fuss over a Seb or a Hinderer.

So if we all agree that there's really no ultimate need for a $3000, $300, or even $100 knife, why do I have so many of them? Because sometimes, I want a flute of Perrier-Jouet and a stack of caviar blinis. Sometimes, I want to wear a tailored suit and a custom-made shirt. And sometimes, I want to hear the smooth whisper and musical lockup of my Seb, or feel the elegant snap of my feather-weight Al Mar Falcon. Even if, as you say, we consider these to be "disposable" tools (an assertion with which I disagree- a careful user can get many, many years of service from a quality knife), there are plenty of people who can spend as much on a fine meal as we spend on a good folder.

Plus, some knives truly do have performance benefits. Emersons, Striders, ZTs, Crusaders, and even some Cold Steels...baton with them, stab with them, stomp on them and then put them through a sheet of steel, and there are some knives that really will take that kind of abuse. Do I need something like that? Probably not, but some people do.

You took a long road to agree with the OP.
The short story:
$40 Vs $250 meal - The cost of the meal (knife) is not based on cost of the food (steel). Two restaurants with the same overhead costs can make a profit by choosing a business plan with $40 meals or $250 meals. The difference is table turnover (volume). You get more turnover with the $40 meal than the $250 meal (takes longer to prepare/present/eat; fewer people willing to pay for it)

"flute of Perrier-Jouet and a stack of caviar blinis." people are must pay "higher" prices for a Perrier-Jouet and caviar because they are scarce/limited commodities. Knives that come from small volumne manufactures cost more because of the lack of sales volume.

"Plus, some knives truly do have performance benefits" Most people do not need the marginal differences provided by high cost knives. Small and large mfg are able to charge more money for these unneeded marginal differences because people are willing to pay for them.
 
I would bet that you couldn't beat a carbon Mora for 'value for money'. I would also bet that the edge retention on very expensive knives in not nearly twice as good as on the Mora (despite 20x the price or whatever it might be).

I think the message needs to somehow get out to people that rely on and use knives frequently that there are knives that are really good and are well within their budgets.


Yes you are absolutely right and I won't argue with you there. I have a couple of moras and they get screaming sharp they are excellent knives for what they are.

Moras are not for everyone. They are sheath knives (the ones I have seen anyway) and some people just don't like sheath knives.

The carbon steel ones I have don't have great sheaths (cheap plastic) and the blade to handle (wood) construction (small rattail) is not the strongest. While the blade itself is superb and can probably take quite a pounding I am not sure how much cutting force one can put on the knife before either the handle breaks or a bend occurs in the blade tang area.

Not all Moras are cheap some are quite expensive and probably better built than the cheaper ones I described.
For cutting all of them are great with great blade steel (carbon steel versions.)

The carbon steel moras are not stainless some people want stainless and I am not sure how mora stainless stacks up to other stainless steels.

While you are right about moras being a great value it also depends on what use they are going to be put to. That in itself may require a more expensive knife. So the choice of whether to buy a mora or mora like knife is not exactly as clear as night and day.

Although quality usually cost more money it is not always the case and the point I am trying to make is the average worker can benefit from having a basic education on what makes a good knife for the type of work they want to do. Low price does not always mean a good buy, and in most cases, not all however, it isn't .

So no it is not always possible to do well with lower priced or cheaply made products.
 
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Here are pics of my cheap ass NAVY knives. I like'em and would bet my life on them if it came down to it. Keepem sharp
 
There is an old saying that rings true."Good tools ain't cheap and cheap tools ain't good".:cool:

Because it has been said does not make it true. The fact is that there ARE good cheap tools. A half dozen or so have been listed on this thread over and over. Excellent general purpose knives can be bought for under $20, some under $10.

There is also ferociously overpriced junk. We recently had a thread on pimped out kit knives being sold for hundreds of dollars. Not a thing that had been done to them made them a significantly better tool, just more attractive to the suckers. We also had a thread about moderately expensive serrated blades losing teeth on the first use.

Greater, your doubts about Mora's stainless only show that you have not used it. The cure for that is to buy one and try it. It's good stuff, more than good enough for any normal use. The same can be said for the Mora tang. You are not going to bend or break one under any sane use. Neither may be that elusive, mythical, "best possible", but both are plenty good for any reasonable expectation.
 
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who cares? Everything that forms will eventually fall apart and crumble away, even the Himalayas. Nothing is permanent so why care? Buy what you want but realise that everything is already decaying (albeit sometimes slow). No need to feel bad about it. It's the nature of all things. If you have money and you want to spend it on something or someone you feel the need to spend it on feel free to do so. Your lifespan is way too short to waist valuable time and energy to think about trivial things like i just did....

Who is the luckiest man, the dead man with 100 maxam knives or the dead man with 100 Warenski's (or whatever)?

Carpe Diem....


t-shirt-skeleton600.jpg
 
Cheap knives can get the job done just as well as expensive knives, depending on the job. I have a old Cold Steel Machete that we use out on the farm for chopping weeds and small wood. It has hit steel cables, concrete foundations, Ice , dirt, parked machinery and the garage floor. Every couple years, I spend five minutes or so with it on the belt sander and its ready for another year or so. Would a Busse do better? I don't think so and I am not about to try it when a ten dollar CS will do that job just as well.

My brother carries a cheap folder with which he cuts a apple, opens mail and packages, cleans his finger nails and cuts a little string. He digs around in the garden with it. How high a dollar knife would he need to do a better job of what he does with his?

Almost any knife is plenty good for what many people do with their knives and in many cases, cheap will do it just as well as expensive. Spend what you need to spend, This is America and so far you have the right to buy whatever does it for you.
 
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Cheap knives can get the job done just as well as expensive knives, depending on the job. I have a old Cold Steel Machete that we use out on the farm for chopping weeds and small wood. It has hit steel cables, concrete foundations, Ice , dirt parked machinery and the garage floor. Every couple years, I spend five minutes or so with it on the belt sander and its ready for another year or so. Would a Busse do better? I don't think so and I am not about to try it when a ten dollar CS will do that job just as well.

Those CS matchetes are nice and tough too. :thumbup:

They make some of the best matchetes on the market. ;)
 
I believe that yes, a 25$ knife will work. Will it be reliable, no. Locks, sheaths, blade material, handle material, fit and finish and versatility all play a part in knife purchases. If you want a cheap knife, buy a razor knife, it cuts. If you want to buy a knife you can throw in your pocket and depend on, don't buy a 25$ walmart special. I've bought cheap knives and they may cut, but the edge retention isnt worth the hassle, they chip and dull, the locks don't hold up, and now, i'm not a knife abuser, but when you're cutting cardboard and the knife gets stuck so you pull out or up on it and it shuts, theres an issue. So, i think you're out of your mind, and i'm entitled to my opinion :-) good day sir!
 
QUOTE=Leftoverdj;7813845]Because it has been said does not make it true. The fact is that there ARE good cheap tools. A half dozen or so have been listed on this thread over and over. Excellent general purpose knives can be bought for under $20, some under $10.

There is also ferociously overpriced junk. We recently had a thread on pimped out kit knives being sold for hundreds of dollars. Not a thing that had been done to them made them a significantly better tool, just more attractive to the suckers. We also had a thread about moderately expensive serrated blades losing teeth on the first use.

Greater, your doubts about Mora's stainless only show that you have not used it. The cure for that is to buy one and try it. It's good stuff, more than good enough for any normal use. The same can be said for the Mora tang. You are not going to bend or break one under any sane use. Neither may be that elusive, mythical, "best possible", but both are plenty good for any reasonable expectation.[/QUOTE]
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You points are well taken however "normal" "reasonable" and "sane use" is very subjective to what an individual considers so in his experience. Mora stainless may very well be good whether it's the best value in stainless would really depend on what kind of work you want to do with it and how the knife overall would stand up to it.

A low priced mora is by no means my choice for a heavy duty knife and is not the tool I would choose for that kind of work.

More expensive knives are not always for "suckers" but for people who have a need for a knife of design and materials that can very well just happen to be more expensive to make and market.

As I said before Taiwan and China are now producing low priced knives that match the quality of some of the more expensive counterparts on the market but usually not in terms of better quality blade steel (often good enough blade steel though) so a low price does not always dictate a bad value however when one purchases the wrong tool or an inferior tool for the type of work he/she does only because of a low price tag they are getting a bad value and cheating themselves.

For example if some one does a lot cutting and needs a high quality, strong, stainless blade folder that holds an edge unusually long then it would be better to pay the extra for it.

I remember when I was scraping the paint of my grandmother's house. I was using these cheap $2.00 stainless scrapers. They were going dull all the time and did an average job when sharp. After replacing them constantly and trying to sharpen them I finally upped about $65.00 for a Swedish scraper with a longer thicker ergo handle and a changeable carbide blade.

The difference was night and day work was much easier and much much faster. It scraped like no tomorrow (better design and better quality) That carbide blade never needed changing because it did not wear out. Had I not chosen a better tool, the time, work, trouble, and aggravation would have easily been much more expensive than $65.00.

If I was scraping a small dog house maybe the $2.00 scraper would not have been as much an issue.
 
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