SHTF Rifle of Choice

[winbag338]

Les stroud? The man who showed us how to flint knap a fish hook?

 

[koyote]

I don't mean to be that negative guy. But the Best SHTF rifle is the one that you have with you when the sh!t hits the fan. We could talk endless BS about calibers and weapon systems but in my experience it comes down to one thing. Training. I emphasize three things to my guys: Fieldcraft, tactics, Marksmanship. Get proficient at all of them and any weapon you wield that you are experienced with can be used within it's capabilities effectively. The weapon is just a tool. I would like to see more threads that say. 'Best training for SHTF'

That's my .02

There is a point to making a decision on what rifle you are going to have around.

And I think there's a decent point in discussion the philosophies behind choices- some people want to be able to score an extra 15,000 rounds from the military or police (how, we don't ask, but I have to wonder) and so choose .223, some people want to lay down fields of fire, Some people live in regions where a 250 yard shot on a moose might actually mean food. Some people live in areas that have a huge population density of smaller and medium sized game for brush hunting.

Some people need 10,000 rounds, some need 200. It's a broad range of thoughts and ideas to be exposed to, and I enjoy reading the responses periodically and trying out new ideas. Like collecting huge stockpiles of ammo. We now have 25 THOUSAND rounds in the house....

...

for the airguns. (and that counts the BBs, otherwise it would be 15k, but that doesn't sound as bad ass)


I would love to get into a best training for shtf thread. I think there's probably a fair amount I could do that I don't.

Most of my thinking follows lines of hunting, low key self defense, possible community militia involvement. Me against the hordes, standing tall and proud and dealing Ahern-esque death to the hundreds isn't really my style of doomsday.

I do practice soem fast short range shooting with the revolvers, balanced out with 15, 25, and 50 yard slow fire single action. Shotgun I try and keep my clay pigeon skills going, but acknowledge that spend more time on the fun stuff. moving tactical speed shotgun work is just a blast. And I definitely need to spend more time on longer range setup shots (slugs are expensive!@#%*!)

 

[Fieldtestornothing]

Koyote I agree with you 100%. There is validity to discussing different weapons and their different attributes. But I NEVER see a thread about training. I can't tell you how many times I hear a group of guys talking about the coolest new gear queer crap and when we go to the range none of them deliver rounds on target. Just an observation. Obviously not everyone.

My .02

 

[nemoaz]

Spot on at 500 yards?

Bolt action needs a flashlight?

Officer's Model that hits plates at 100 yards?

223 isn't useful for anything? (No better than a pellet gun I guess.)

This thread needs roto-rooter.

 

[Captain Spaulding]

Spot on at 500 yards?

Bolt action needs a flashlight?

Officer's Model that hits plates at 100 yards?

223 isn't useful for anything? (No better than a pellet gun I guess.)

This thread needs roto-rooter.

What are you even talking about? It sounds like you are questioning whether or not I can dust coyotes at 500 with a Model 70 30-06. How would you even know?

Perhaps your opinion should be in the same place where roto rooter makes its living.

I don't think anyone, that I can recall, suggested a light on a bolt. My question was on a dual purpose rifle that would accommodate lights should it be used for security measures in the dark.

Seriously, how about you explain your inane comments so we know the error of our ways.

 

[koyote]

223 isn't useful for anything? (No better than a pellet gun I guess.)

Aw, geez. here we go again. Let's try this again, in fairly simple terms.

(It might help to state first that a .223 carbine and a pellet gun are different things with different purposes. Though hunting large game with airgun is perfectly feasible, there's a drastic difference in the big, heavy slow versus the small, fast, overpenetrating design ideas)

The .223 round is compact and you can carry a lot of it in a small space. It can kill deer, as can a .22LR, or a bow and arrow. It's far from useless.

However, in terms of stopping power, it is too little weight with too much speed for many types of situations. It is not a particularly versatile round and despite the fine shots people can make with it it isn't a very hard hitter at longer ranges. It's a bit of a do everything round, but not enough- for me. Others can and will disagree.

A common airgun is, in fact, more useful for small game at brush ranges. A shotgun is, in fact, more useful for small game at brush ranges, fowling, and IMO, for large game out to moderate ranges. I'm not going to get into the larger airguns at this time, except to say that a specialty item such as a bison class airgun is a whole different world.

I'd much rather have 158 grains at 1200fps hitting anything largish that I wanted to kill than 55 grains at 3000fps. Feel free to disagree.

The .223's single design purpose is infantry combat. And it's fairly decent at that. It's very compact and fairly cheap. It's far from useless, but yeah, it doesn't do much for me. You can misread that as much as you like.

I guess it depends on what your definition of SHTF is. I can see an AR being a fine thing to have if it's really a community militia defense against concerted attempts to Do Bad Things to the community.

 

[Charlie Mike]

I'm a convicted (non violent) felon and an infantry veteran. If the hackles on my neck go north n south, I will "violate" the law. In that (hopefully) rare event, I will obtain whatever I can. If I have a .357 (and ... say a few speed loaders) and find something that would work as a main battle rifle... My wife will inherit the handgun. If this SHTF happens, I'll group together with the wife and friends at a pre-determined objective rally point. After we have organized, I will obtain every weapon I can get. If I find something better than what I have.... trickle down. I taught my wife that in this case, everyone that is not "us" is a threat. I will act according to my training.

 

[Happy Joe]

To be truly useful as a SHTF rifle the weapon needs to use widely available ammo that is capable of being reloaded with portable reloading equipment. One of the basic questions in a SHTF scenario is "Go or stay?" and staying is not always possible you need to be prepared to do either. If you stay an arsenal of specialized weaponry is likely available (the question of "Best" becomes largely moot), if forced to go you need to consider the weight, as you may be reduced to foot travel eventually. One reason I favor the .223 is that while it is a relatively poor performer on larger game, it can be made to work (How many deer do you actually expect to see post SHTF, with literally millions of people invading the woods?)(You didn't think it was an original idea, surely), and it can fire .22 caliber rounds with a light weight adapter. This broadens the applicability (you won't vaporize the rabbit that looked so good for dinner if you drop a .22 (long rifle or short) adapter into the chamber for the meat shot). Also the smaller rounds can be very quiet so that everyone for a mile around does not know that you are in the area and have something worth shooting at. The major advantage of the .223 is that it can provide the short range firepower necessary to save your life if required. It also can be somewhat intimidating (possibly helping to avoid confrontation).

IMO, weapon and ammo portability is a very important consideration in a lifesaving weapon.

To the naysayers (of whatever weapon) get some experience! .45 ACP can be an accurate round (carry what you like; continue to underestimate another person's carry gun at your peril, post SHTF) and deer can be taken with a .22, and pellet guns will continue to be reliable on small game.

Enjoy!

 

[Captain Spaulding]

This may be an odd question but a while back I saw a custom AR like this one.

Does anyone know of an affordable kit that allows you to fire 30-06 in an AR-10 platform?

 

[nemoaz]

I'd much rather have 158 grains at 1200fps hitting anything largish that I wanted to kill than 55 grains at 3000fps. Feel free to disagree.

I will disagree. 30 years of EMS/emergency room, army special forces, and law enforcement experience. I've seen lotsa bullet wounds. Probably had my paws in or on a few hundred of them. A 158 grain bullet at 1200 fps is a mild 357 and it doesn't even make a fraction of a the damage as a 223. It's not even close. Any high velocity rifle create many magnitudes more damage than any pistol (assumes 1500 fps or less).

Now if you wanna argue that that a 357 (especially out of a rifle) is ENOUGH gun, we can agree on that. If it's your choice for other reasons (ability to reload easily, handgun/carbine combo, shooting downloaded 38s with wadcutters for small game, you just like it, whatever), I'd agree again that it is versatile and a great choice.

But a 357 isn't a 223 as far as killing "anything largish".

 

[Raisedby wolves]

A .357 is about 535 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle, 5.56 mm is more like 1,300 ft lbs.

Of course the .223 is gonna probably pass through and the 357 is gonna spread out and do a WHOLE LOT of damage.

Either way your gonna be dead in a hurry without medical treatment PRONTO.

Carl-

 

[nemoaz]

Does anyone know of an affordable kit that allows you to fire 30-06 in an AR-10 platform?

Can't say that I'm aware of any of the longer action AR rifles are what I'd call affordable.

As for .308s, I'd probably choose the FAL. Less expensive than the M14 types and I don't think much of the low quality cast receivers, op rods and other parts on the m1A. ) I don't pay lexus prices for a yugo.)

That being said, my rifle is a 223. That won't set well with some people, but I've never been the type that had to have a hemi in everything.

Your choices may be different. Much larger game in Colorado.

Why not keep the Winchester? The truth is, the zombie invasion probably isn't coming anyway.

 

[g123]

Hey Guys,

There are a lot of good reasons people are making the choices they are posting. It does really depend on the situation you are in. I live in the foothill of the SF Bay Area. What worries me is that we live in a fractured Nation now where our patriotic bonds may not exist as before. The US population in WW2 was united. We did see some of that when 911 happened. Unfortunately the past 5 or 6 years has really shown an erosion of people’s unity in this nation. The greatest threat we have is not terrorism or a natural disaster or war, it's the unity of this country.

Because of this I would try to assess my situation and if the civil unrest was not too great I would stay to help my neighbor and our country. If you think about it, if Americans take the stance "I come first" we are already done as a Nation.

Therefore, I choose to try to be part of the solution first rather than just run and hide.

If it looked like it was going wrong really fast I would have to leave where I live and head for a remote area. If my family and I where separated I would take a 22 LR so I could travel light and quite to reach them. My wife and kids know if things look bad they are to get out fast and I will travel along ways to get to them.

If we are together, my wife and daughter would have a pistol and I would add a SKS and AR 15 to the mix.

So the question we need to ask is "Are we as Americans going to step up and try to keep this country great?"

I just can not see myself not trying to keep the country together first. If we go as a Nation the whole would is in trouble.

Geoff

 

[adamajc]

In a shtf situation ar15 in .223. Get a fast twist rate bbl, to stabilize the up to the 77gr., and if not just shoot the dang thing in the ear. Small game too, head shots to avoid blowing up meat. Of course it would not be as practical as a 22 on small game but it would open up a lot more on the higher end of game size plus your range would be substantially longer. My vote would be to get a three rifle barrage to cover all potential game, zombies included.

 

[DWK2]

g123,

Very thoughtful analysis you posted. Good points.

Down here in LA, there is so much divisiveness and tension between the various ethnic/racial/socio-economic groups that I fear we would not be working together in a catastrophe. I'm very concerned that we would see a repeat of the Rodney King riots. I am worried that we would experience a separation and division of the various communities, resembling what happens in a prison environment.

Unless all of the groups in LA come to feel that they have a vested interest in making the system function again after a disaster, I fear that inter-group conflict and chaos would be the outcome. Getting the majority of people invested in and committed to the economic and social system is a worthy objective but a tough one to achieve.

DancesWithKnives

 

[high desert]

Possibly consider a poor man's AR. A lever action in 30-30 or .357 or .44mag. These rifles are reasonable priced used, quick handling, mild recoil, easy to learn to use, can share pistol ammo and have a decent round capacity. I do have an AR but never would part with my 30-30.

 

[Infi-del]

223

357. Have to assume this is out of a pistol. So rifle would give you better results.

 

[Pritch]

g123,
Unless all of the groups in LA come to feel that they have a vested interest in making the system function again after a disaster, I fear that inter-group conflict and chaos would be the outcome. Getting the majority of people invested in and committed to the economic and social system is a worthy objective but a tough one to achieve.

DancesWithKnives

DWK, I'm afraid you are correct, not only in your area, but in general. The glue that has historically held our society together has lost its grip, and any interuption in social order will be seen as an opportunity to topple the status quo, with the various components of [fill in the name of any real or percieved under class here] jockeying for supremacy.

The disruption provides the psychological cover that the old rules don't apply, thus justifying violence and plunder. They may not necessarily think they can achieve a rewriting of the social order, but, in addition to venting some pent up anger, at least they have a big screen TV when the dust settles!

This will no doubt be percieved as insensitive or in poor taste to say on MLK Jr. Day, but I believe it is a valid observation of the state of disrepair our society is in.

 

[g123]

DWK2,

That is the problem. But unless we start with the mind set of helping and not reacting, it does not have a chance.

America is going to get what we have sewn. What needs to be decided ahead of time, starting now is what we are going to sew. I think the smart money would be to think and work for the best and prepare for the worst. That way we can have a balanced approach.

No mater what, eventually we will have to band together.

Also, if we are in chaos, it would create an opportunistic possibility for our enemies. If we have a natural disaster or terrorist event and we respond improperly one of the powerful nations that oppose us may think this is there best shot at us. I had a professor at ASU where I attended college that was a Colonel in the military spy game and was very high up in military intelligence. He would talk about world events once a month just to keep us patriotic and up to date on world events. He stated that the United States and Russia would do what if scenarios on a war between us during the cold war. He said each side figured they may be able to win a war over the other until Russia had to factor in our armed civilian population that would be united. They could not run any scenario that could deal with that.

So, if we allow chaos and are fighting against each other, watch out. Some country may think it's time to take there best shot.

That why we are called the "United" States. Our founding fathers knew what would make us strong.

Geoff

 

[Captain Spaulding]

223

357. Have to assume this is out of a pistol. So rifle would give you better results.

Looks like in that comparison the .223 is more devastating. Larger and longer wound channel and the fragmentation is nastier. I guess that would be more a funtion of ammo type than caliber...correct?