SHTF Rifle of Choice

nemoaz said:
I will disagree. 30 years of EMS/emergency room, army special forces, and law enforcement experience. I've seen lotsa bullet wounds. Probably had my paws in or on a few hundred of them. A 158 grain bullet at 1200 fps is a mild 357 and it doesn't even make a fraction of a the damage as a 223. It's not even close. Any high velocity rifle create many magnitudes more damage than any pistol (assumes 1500 fps or less).
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This is a fact of physics. Double the bullet weight and you will double the kinetic energy. Double the velocity and you quadruple the energy. In particular when you start getting around 2000 -2500 fps on any projectile you start doing tremendous damage by cavitation in the wound. That translates to shock and immediate knockdown power and immediate or shortly delayed death. Not knockdown in the sense of bowling one over physically but in the physical shock to the organism as a whole and it not being able to maintain the ability to control its function even if it is conscious.

There are other parts to this (stopping power) equation but velocity is a very big part.

KR
 
For me I don't see the need to have a SHTF rifle which is designed to "hose down" people...at 200 yards how do you know their intentions? If you need to have a rifle to cope in a SHTF situation you need something versatile which would be with you when ou needed it.

I am still in our Military and I would'nt go down that route...if people are a problem they will be close...a high mag capacity pistol with a light attachment is quicker to move and handle around your home in the dark...

For a rifle I would pick a drilling done by Kreighoff which has a 12 Guage barrel, a .22LR barrel and a .308 barrel....the .22 I would have zeroed with a scope and with target turrets I would know the alterations to add to get the .308 working ...the .22 for smaller game where the scope would help...the shotgun for birds or moving rabbits...the .308 for larger game....this would be easy to carry and with you when you needed it...

Take that for food and a high capacity pistol for self defence...if you are killing people at 200 yards or even 100 yards....like as not someone will kill you...survive on a low profile basis and only start defending yourself when you need to...
 
kr1 said:
This is a fact of physics. Double the bullet weight and you will double the kinetic energy. Double the velocity and you quadruple the energy. In particular when you start getting around 2000 -2500 fps on any projectile you start doing tremendous damage by cavitation in the wound. That translates to shock and immediate knockdown power and immediate or shortly delayed death. Not knockdown in the sense of bowling one over physically but in the physical shock to the organism as a whole and it not being able to maintain the ability to control its function even if it is conscious.

There are other parts to this (stopping power) equation but velocity is a very big part.

KR
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The 2000 FPS threshold is why I find .357 Magnum so compelling in a combo of carbine and revolver. Out of a revolver, even using flash suppressing powders, the .357 throws a helluva fireball out of its barrel and cylinder gap along with a supersonic crack that is pretty darn loud for a handgun.

Harness that "wasted gas" in a 16-20" barreled carbine and you're pushing a 158 grain bullet over 2200-2300 feet per second, into .30-30 or 7.62x39 territory, albeit only inside of the first 100 yards or so. However, being able to carry the same ammo that is one of the top defensive handgun rounds extant and which will also serve as a close in rifle round, without having to hump magazines for both a semi auto rifle and pistol, tickles my fancy.

Apparently, many folks at the close of the "wild west" period thought the same as the carbine/pistol carbine concept has been around at least that long.
 
Boats said:
Harness that "wasted gas" in a 16-20" barreled carbine and you're pushing a 158 grain bullet over 2200-2300 feet per second, into .30-30 or 7.62x39 territory, albeit only inside of the first 100 yards or so. .
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I agree completely that a 357 out of a levergun is very respectable carbine.
 
For a bolt probably my enfield. Good capacity, great round, minute of man accuracy at very long ranges, and very very shootable. For a semiauto probably the FAL. Its not the right hand of the free world for nothing.
 
Captain Spaulding said:
Looks like in that comparison the .223 is more devastating. Larger and longer wound channel and the fragmentation is nastier. I guess that would be more a funtion of ammo type than caliber...correct?
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It's a function of velocity. E still equals M * (C squared). Well, the fragmentation is a function of the bullet type but the general wound size is a function of energy.
 
HaroldB said:
infi del,
Does that web site have results from a 7.62 x 39 bullet?
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AK-47%20762x39mm.jpg
 
I wonder where Fackler got the 120.5 grn ammunition. Every thing I've used in the last 20 years is 140-147 grn and often in HP.

Thanks for the post though.
 
22LR%2037gr%20HP%20Wound%20Profile.jpg

Nothing to sneeze at folks. It compares pretty well with this, the mythical best manstopper in history-- 45 ACP FMJ-- according to internet knowitalls:
45ACP%20230gr%20FMJ.jpg


Admitedly there is NO comparison to a 45ACP hollowpoint.
 
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HaroldB said:
I wonder where Fackler got the 120.5 grn ammunition. Every thing I've used in the last 20 years is 140-147 grn and often in HP.

Thanks for the post though.
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That's 7.62x39 Russian short, not 7.62 Nato/308. I usually see the 7.62x39 with a 123 grain bullet, but Dr. Fackler probably weighed it for an exact measurement.
 
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The two pack-sized rifles I have:
KT SU-16, 5.56 and KT SUB 2000 in .40S&W (Glock 22 mags)
514893932_qWivg-M-1.jpg



The one I'd like to have . . .
KT RFB .308.
guns032.jpg
 
Captain Spaulding said:
Here is a site that shows the actual gelatin for each caliber and various ammo within the caliber...no sketches.

http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page362.htm
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Yeah, I like that site but it's sometimes hard to see because they don't use die or casts of the wound profile. The photos are also taken from different distances so it's difficult to compare on block of gelatin vs. another. Sometimes he just photographed the recovered bullets for some reason. There are many more calibers represented there however.
 
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nemoaz said:
It's a function of velocity. E still equals M * (C squared). Well, the fragmentation is a function of the bullet type but the general wound size is a function of energy.
Click to expand...

That is actually the law of relativity ;) but kinetic energy in foot/lbs is .5 m (v squared) v(elocity) in feet/sec and m(ass) is in slugs.

Bullet design, how it expands and if it breaks up, has a lot to do with how the energy is transferred to the target. If you use a tungsten carbide bullet and it punches a tiny hole through the person just making a very small hole and it only slowing down very little then very little energy was transferred to the target and if nothing of importance was punctured then the person might die of an infection, but no real damage or shock was transmitted.

KR
 
You don't know my relatives.

I knew that. Just screwed it up as usual. Been a while since I've had a pop quiz. The relationship was correct however.
 
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