Sig Sauer P320 and their disastrous response

not2sharp

not2sharp

Platinum Member
Joined
Jun 29, 1999
Messages
20,473
Sig Sauer has long been my favorite hand gun maker. Their imported double action/single action pistols have long set the standard and many of their other pistols including the P365 have been excellent. But there is no denying that there has been a long standing issue with the P320 and the military M17/M18 versions.

Sig Sauer manufactures in the US, Germany and Switzerland. The P320 is mainly produced in the US for the US and allied militaries, and has also been widely used by US agencies, local and state police agencies and civilian gun owners. About 600k have been delivered to the military and in excess of 3 million have been produced.

Thus far the issues are alleged to have included firearm discharge when dropped at a certain angle upon a hard surface, and un-commanded discharges when placed into some holsters or when the slide is manipulated. A lot of people have allegedly been injured, many have sued and Sig has issued a "voluntary" upgrade for the drop issue; but they have continued to deny that there is an issue with the firearm. Still the question persists and many are convinced the gun can discharge without a full trigger pull. Currently, there are a growing number of military, government, police and private training facilities that are suspending the use of the P320 within their departments and facilities. The latest was the suspension of the firearm from the Airforce Missile Command, after one of their airman was shot and killed by his holstered weapon.

This is a growing problem for all of us. A leading gun maker can end up insolvent, it may cost a lot of money for the agencies around the world to replace their weapons, many private owners fear using their own guns, and we should all fear the possibility of encountering an authority figure with one of these weapons if it should end up pointed in our direction. For now there is a massive level of concern being raised by countless news and internet sources.

The underlying cause is often attributed to a fully energized striker and its floating and perhaps faulty trigger and safety mechanism. Ironically the P365 is a smaller and later variant of the pistol that uses a similar mechanism but appears to have been modified to eliminate these problems. I suspect that the real underlying issue is the massive 10-year US military contract and the reluctance to renegotiate the pistol specifications for fear of putting the whole agreement at risk. I think the only way forward for Sig is to step up and take the lead on solving the concern. They either have a problem or they don't and they can either recall the weapons or offer a paid modification; but, they cannot just keep blaming the users and others for these issues. Whatever the weakness is, it is perceived to exist and it needs to be addressed.

Let's discuss.


N2s
 
Last edited:
fishface5 said:
Money is the root of all evil. Fixing it would be expensive, so . . .
Click to expand...
Not fixing it may be even more costly. The company is selling out its own hard earned reputation. Which affects all of its product lines.

How do you fix it when you have to comply with a Mil Spec.?

Also, the trigger module is the gun. Can you upgrade the module without changing the serial number?

N2s
 
You can update parts on the fcu, I think the sn is on the fcu frame. The striker mechanism is in the slide so no issue replacing those.
 
The whole situation is just sad. I have a bunch of Sig firearms and they're all fantastic. Never owned a P320, so I have no personal experience with it. I get there's a lot of money on the line, but doubling down and issuing nothing but boiler plate legal team responses is just reputation suicide. They have a ton of other great guns they can bank on, but rather than pump the breaks on the P320, they're willing to sink the whole ship. It's crazy. They need to fire their entire PR department.
 

This video provides a good summary of Sig Sauer’s position. It is a couple of months old and has not aged well. Attacking your customers, suggesting they are either incompetent or lying, is a poor strategy. It also fails to explain why the issue is only coming up with the singular Sig product; wouldn’t such customers experience the same issues with other models and other brands?

Btw, apparently the armorer had put a previous video out saying that he was working on a fix for the problem. He then had a meeting with Sig, deleted the original video and published the video linked above.

N2s
 
Last edited:
BTW, my favorite response to this thus far has been one made recently by a firearms instructor on YouTube, who blames the user for buying the wrong gun for the purpose. He makes the argument that Sig simply provided what the users wanted and unfortunately that included putting a race gun trigger into a carry pistol. It may be lighter and smoother, but is it safe enough for defensive carry and duty use? He blames Sig for going along and not educating the consumer on what they are actually buying. Keep in mind that the lead customer here was actually the US military.

I find this similar to the model 700 issue that eventually killed Remington Firearms. They put out rifles with an adjustable trigger, and some people eventually adjusted it to an unsafe level where one mom ended up shooting her own kid. There is a thin line between satisfying market demand and doing so safely.

n2s
 
not2sharp said:
I find this similar to the model 700 issue that eventually killed Remington Firearms. They put out rifles with an adjustable trigger, and some people eventually adjusted it to an unsafe level where one mom ended up shooting her own kid. There is a thin line between satisfying market demand and doing so safely.
Click to expand...
Was that the XMP trigger? If I recall correctly, that was supposed to fix a huge issue with the original trigger. They had a problem where putting the rifle on safe would actually fire it. I didn't know there were issues with the XMP as well.
 
Rob Cohen is doing to Sig, what he did to Kimber. Cut corners when it comes to quality, to make more dollars at the end of the day. Multiple lawsuits currently against Sig, mostly from LEO agencies. Recent dead airman, involving a p320, along with multiple others shot, and millions paid in wrongful death lawsuits. I don’t see how anyone could own a p320, unless you have a death wish.
 
I'm an engineer, I like to think that someone could study the mechanism and determine what the problem is and what is causing it. Of course once the problem is determined, a solution can be determined. My guess is that a couple of redesigned parts would fix it. But then if SIG agrees that there is a problem then that opens them up to a lot of lawsuits for liability. If they admit there is a problem, that might kill them. If they ignore the problem that will probably kill them. Well they can still sell p365 to people who are willing to overlook the other problems. Maybe that would let them hang on enough to come up with some new products. Of course they are also trying to sell the military a few rifles.
 
I don't really know if there's fire under all the smoke or not, and root cause analysis for this sort of thing is hard because there's infinite variables and a lot of supposedly mechanical failures end up being user failures when it comes to accidental/negligent discharges.

... but I'm glad I got out of P320s, I will say that.
 
madcap_magician said:
... but I'm glad I got out of P320s, I will say that.
Click to expand...
Trouble is it effects the safety of anyone around someone carrying a p320

The p250 was perfect for the military. Hammer fired, modular, super safe.

My opinion is the fully loaded striker is a bad idea. On any gun.

Also the lack of a trigger safety. The striker block is disabled in the first couple mm of trigger travel. That is still the pre travel, before you are engaging the sear. The trigger safety would stop any sideways pressure on the trigger from taking up the pre travel.

I think even minimal drag on the side of the trigger is disengaging the striker block. Like in a holster

The striker is then fully loaded ready to fire a round.

Tolerance stacking or defective parts or bad design releases the sear with a bump.

It would result in a dead trigger if the striker wasn’t fully cocked.

Not a Glock fan in anyway. But Glock knew what they were doing. Sig tried to copy them and left out some important details.
 
Apparently there is a document (FMECA) circulating that seems to indicate that Sig knew about the uncommanded discharge issue back in January of 2017. They had assigned a probability of .001 that the p320 would discharge unintentionally during the life of the gun.

N2s
 
Last edited:
other than the 1911, I havent been a fan of modern army picked pistols. the m9/beretta I don't care for, and these m17/18 sigs either.

I own lots of pistols, but not this sig so im watching from the sidelines on this. reminds me of the remington 700 trigger suits that ran forever ......
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top