Sig Sauer P320 and their disastrous response

[Steven65]

What a terrible business mindset and business philosophy in general. The fact that they kept on denying the problems for so long is adding insult to injury. Imagine being the family of the airman and seeing these professional liars at SIG trying to save what they can. No, I can't forgive behavior like that. I hope they go bankrupt, and the next company that gets the government contracts takes notes and learns how it is not done. If it will get that far. Perhaps Glock or Beretta?

Sadly many jobs, skills and knowledge will be lost when that happens..............Many ordinary people in New Hampshire who work on the factory floor and who rely on that work to feed their families and pay bills. No-one working on the Sig factory floor is getting rich from Sig's government contracts.

The real culprits are in the boardroom who can't accept a decent profit for a decent product. Their bonuses and share options are based solely on the bottom line and so they squeeze every last Dollar out of everything no matter who it hurts.

I suspect that this is just the beginning of the quality control revelations. Let's see what comes to light with the M7 and MMG338.

 

[jbmonkey]

One of my favorite gun brands basically destroyed itself. I remember when I visited the factory in 2019 in Germany the following. An employee took two pistols; I can't remember the models, but they were the same model. Both steel guns, slide and frame. One pistol was made in the US and the other in Germany. He shook them together at the same time. One rattled, and one did not make a sound.

One pistol was made in the US and the other in Germany. He explained that in the US, factory tolerances were looser. They used certain parts longer to cut out the frame and slide rails and other parts of the gun, which would give a less tight fit. I never forget that moment, and it is a shame that the factory is gone. Let's hope production stops in the US and Switzerland takes over. That could be a huge improvement in restoring trust in the company. What a shame...

looser tolerances arent always bad.
when it comes to feeding various brand ammo reliably or in environments with sand and other issues that can make a tight built gun, even broken in properly, not function. trade off from tighter tolerances to looser isn't always quality of the gun itself. its more giving up tighter groupings and acccuracy...but a lot of that often has to do with the shooter more than the pistol.

id say sig started failing back in the early 2000s.....I saw models released that bugs weren't worked out and overall quality kinda start to slip. not bad guns per say just not with the high standards of the European ones we all knew and loved, that we were used to......

the p320 has never caught my eye. I have zero want or need for one. I'd prefer a p226, but my wants and needs are very different from a military......

 

[knarfeng]

looser tolerances arent always bad.
when it comes to feeding various brand ammo reliably or in environments with sand and other issues that can make a tight built gun, even broken in properly, not function. trade off from tighter tolerances to looser isn't always quality of the gun itself. its more giving up tighter groupings and acccuracy...but a lot of that often has to do with the shooter more than the pistol.

id say sig started failing back in the early 2000s.....I saw models released that bugs weren't worked out and overall quality kinda start to slip. not bad guns per say just not with the high standards of the European ones we all knew and loved, that we were used to......

the p320 has never caught my eye. I have zero want or need for one. I'd prefer a p226, but my wants and needs are very different from a military......

Looser tolerances are appropriate only if it is part of the engineering design. They suck if they are a result of poor manufacturing, or due to manufacturing taking advantage of sloppy engineering drawings. (Don't ask me how I know this. )

 

[jbmonkey]

Looser tolerances are appropriate only if it is part of the engineering design. They suck if they are a result of poor manufacturing, or due to manufacturing taking advantage of sloppy engineering drawings. (Don't ask me how I know this. )

sure, you are correct.

we just dont know in this case if design specification tolerances could be allowed or not. we have very limited details on this model gun Sphinx was talking about made in two different factories for different markets and price points, etc. we dont know a lot as its a story told to make a good point, which it did......without any boring details to do any sort of proper analysis and any conclusion as to why.

I do own some american made sigs and none rattle or shake. only sig I've ever shot that rattled was a rental p226, made in the German facility ironically, at a gun range in dallas/fort worth and it looked like it had many 10s of thousands of round through it. also looked like it had never been cleaned. maybe worst lookin beat up gun I've ever shot that still shot super well. a testament to its quality design and build. shot super accurate fed everything i put through it and hit the targets where aimed at. made me a fan of the p226 due to that worn out beat up rental gun.

id rather carry that worn out rental p226 in the state it was in, than a brand new p320....

 

[bdmicarta]

At one time in my engineering career, I spent time reading up on "manufacturing ideologies". One of them is "Total Quality Management", (TQM). It was originally developed based on work done at the Bell Labs during WW II producing radio head sets for aircraft personnel. They found that if they to minimized variation and made each part as precisely as possible, they would end up with fewer rejects and a higher overall production rate.

Several of those Bell engineers, among them, W Edwards Deming, tried to promote these teachings to US manufacturing companies after WW II. The general response was, "We are the only intact manufacturing base left in the world. We can sell anything we can make. We don't care about quality." This mindset still exists in US production circles. The eternal question became not, "how good can we make it?" But rather, "How badly can we make it and have it still perform its function?"

TQM was one of the foundation stones of the Toyota Production System. Because after the US rejected TQM, Deming taught it to Japan. And they took it to heart.

I've also had to study that in engineering. There are a lot of different aspects to quality in engineering and I've tried teaching it to people. I studied a whole lot of documents including writings of Deming, Juran, etc. and there is not a simple answer that applies to everybody, each company or industry has to apply the principles and come up with their own system.

Japan had to rebuild after WWII and improve their manufacturing or go back to being a third world country. They knew that and that's why they were more open. I remember when I was young "made in Japan" meant something was junk, I had toys and other things that were pretty poorly made. I've also had to study the books about the Toyota System. But basically any philosophies about quality of manufacturing have to start with people believing that quality is important and believing that they can achieve it. This is the closest to a simple answer that applies to everybody, then you need some smart people to analyze your situation and improve it. American manufacturing has always operated on the belief that they can make whatever they want and sell it through marketing, quality is not important.

 

[Sphinx3000]

sure, you are correct.

we just dont know in this case if design specification tolerances could be allowed or not. we have very limited details on this model gun Sphinx was talking about made in two different factories for different markets and price points, etc. we dont know a lot as its a story told to make a good point, which it did......without any boring details to do any sort of proper analysis and any conclusion as to why.

I do own some american made sigs and none rattle or shake. only sig I've ever shot that rattled was a rental p226, made in the German facility ironically, at a gun range in dallas/fort worth and it looked like it had many 10s of thousands of round through it. also looked like it had never been cleaned. maybe worst lookin beat up gun I've ever shot that still shot super well. a testament to its quality design and build. shot super accurate fed everything i put through it and hit the targets where aimed at. made me a fan of the p226 due to that worn out beat up rental gun.

id rather carry that worn out rental p226 in the state it was in, than a brand new p320....

It hurts extra when you are a Sig fanboy like me, lol. The P226 and the sport version of it are in my top 5 of favorite handguns. The shop tour in Germany was awesome. There was an old man who worked for decades at the factory who gave us the tour. He was long retired. It was probably one of the activities that he got the most enjoyment out of. He was so enthusiastic and friendly. When they closed shop in 2020, I always wondered how the old man would handle that. Indeed, Steven65, it will be very sad for the workers if Sig goes down.

​

 

[not2sharp]

Hopefully Sig can shed Phil Strader and CEO Ron Cohen and pull a recovery. Ron Cohen is previously credited with wrecking Kimber Manufacturing, so he has experience pulling success into corporate disasters. Perhaps it’s time for him to experience civil and criminal prosecution for his fraud and negligence.

N2s

 

[Steven65]

Hopefully Sig can shed Phil Strader and CEO Ron Cohen and pull a recovery. Ron Cohen is previously credited with wrecking Kimber Manufacturing, so he has experience pulling success into corporate disasters. Perhaps it’s time for him to experience civil and criminal prosecution for his fraud and negligence.

N2s

100%.
From your mouth to G-d's ears............

 

[GB940Rookie]

The P220 was my go to sidearm for many years.
Sigs modular designs have been a failure so far. First the P250 and now the 320.
Their response was expected, but still disappointing.
Why are they releasing designs that obviously have not been properly vetted?
Well ok, the why is obvious, but it’s such a recipe for disaster.

 

[ferider]

After Fatal Wyoming Incident, Sig Sauer M18 Pistol Back In Use At Air Force Bases​

The section of the Air Force that oversees the military branch’s bases is un-grounding the Sig Sauer M18 handgun after pausing its use for a month over the July 20 shooting death of a Wyoming-based airman.

The Air Force Global Strike Command announced in a Sunday statement that it has completed a “comprehensive inspection” of its 7,970 M18 Modular Handgun systems after pausing their use July 21.

The pause was from “an abundance of caution following a tragic incident” in which an Air Force member serving at the F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Cheyenne died.
: : :

After Fatal Wyoming Incident, Sig Sauer M18 Pistol Back In Use At Air Force Bases

The section of the U.S. Air Force that oversees the military branch’s bases is putting the Sig Sauer M18 handgun back in use, the USAF announced Sunday.…

cowboystatedaily.com

PS: don’t use Sigs myself. Just following along and always wonder how the money flows …

 

[Sphinx3000]

I can't imagine being comfortable carrying this gun, even with upgrades, but that is just me. I read in the article that some that are checked are back in action in the military. Let's hope they don't claim more lives. The people in the military don't have a choice which gun they get, I think? But as a private consumer, why the hell would you take the risk?

 

[bdmicarta]

it has completed a “comprehensive inspection” of its 7,970​

I thought the military had bought a half million of them. (The internet says over 3.5 million have been sold.)

But as a private consumer, why the hell would you take the risk?

I've talked to owners who were in denial that there is a problem. I'm more on your side of the fence but I've never owned a P320.

 

[TheZenful1]

Same here. Have a handful of friends I've trained with in the past that are zealots.


Remember they had a recall on a lot of 320's in the beginning due to firing with no external trigger interaction. Maybe that problem and this one are one in the same. Hmmmm

 

[Steven65]

I can't imagine being comfortable carrying this gun, even with upgrades, but that is just me. I read in the article that some that are checked are back in action in the military. Let's hope they don't claim more lives. The people in the military don't have a choice which gun they get, I think? But as a private consumer, why the hell would you take the risk?

Real men appendix carry a 320..........until they are not!