Skipping grits - still get burr?

B

Bo-dacious

Joined
Aug 13, 2016
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Hey guys, my question today is if I go from 200 grit to 1000 or higher, will I get a burr and yet still not make it sharper? or should I still get a burr. I'm trying to sharpen a knife, I went from 200 to 600 and got no burr. I'm trying going to 400 first. Should that make it easier to get a burr? I've had this problem before and made posts about it. Usually I figure out the problem but it's usually different every time. The 600 isn't giving me a burr. So, am I right to move back down to 400 grit first?

Thanks guys,

Bo
 
200 to 600 grit is a fine progression, I would stick with the 600 till it is fully apexed.
A burr on happening on both sides will tell you that plus magnification really helps in telling you where the edge is.
 
I jump from DMT coarse to extra extra fine with a slight increase in angle.
Just a couple of swipes and feel the difference.
If the goal is to refine the coarse edge, you do not have to raise burrs.
Just my 2 cents.
 
Willc: I'm not getting a burr on both sides though. one side I got burr, the other side it won't form. Do you know the reason for that?

miso: okay but I'm working on an edge pro.

So, do you guys think since I can't get a burr I should lower the angle? would that help?

Thanks,

Bo
 
you can raise the angle as miso said when you move to the finer grit....that way you are ensuring better contact with apex on both sides and refining the scratch pattern.
 
If your edge is 15 degrees on one side and 17 degrees on the other side, and you're stone is at 15 degrees, you can raise a burr on one side but not the other. On the 17 degree side, you'll be hitting the edge shoulder, not the apex.

Whenever your stone meets the apex, it will form a burr. If there is no burr, the edge is not fully apexed.

With finer grits, shorter strokes and less pressure, that burr will be smaller and you may not notice it, depending on how educated your thumb is.
 
Twindog said:
If your edge is 15 degrees on one side and 17 degrees on the other side, and you're stone is at 15 degrees, you can raise a burr on one side but not the other. On the 17 degree side, you'll be hitting the edge shoulder, not the apex.

Whenever your stone meets the apex, it will form a burr. If there is no burr, the edge is not fully apexed.

With finer grits, shorter strokes and less pressure, that burr will be smaller and you may not notice it, depending on how educated your thumb is.
Click to expand...

I think this is what is happening B Bo-dacious
After you flip sides do just a few passes on the other side and inspect carefully with a loupe that you are at the correct angle.
Sharpie helps and if a knife gives me problems I’ll go to a very high grit stone and do one or two passes and the contrast of scratch pattern will tell me what way the angle has to be adjusted.
 
I thought I sent this yesterday:

Yes, I've changed the angle to meet the edge angle on both sides. I kept increasing the angle to get a burr but I still didn't get a burr. this has happened on many knives. It's always on the 600 grit, whether it's the 1 inch or the half inch stone. So I know I'm hitting the apex because I've increased the angle so much that only the apex was being touched. Still no burr. There has to be something about the shit 600 grit that is making this happen. I've felt 1000 grit and higher burrs before, so Im pretty sure the case isn't such that I have a burr and I'm not feeling it. Are there any super geniuses out there who can figure out what's going on with the information I've given? And ask me anything you need to find the answer. I appreciate the help.

And willc: I've tried changing the angle. And I've looked at the edge with a loup before and I was hitting The apex. I'll try that again. I just tried on 400 git and I got burrs albeit they were smaller than normal. The knife push cuts paper half deccently. Tonight I'm going to try on 600 grit. If I don't get a burr then I'm lost. I'm getting swarf but mostly on the edges of the stone but it doesn't seem to be a recurve. Maybe very slight recurve.

Any other ideas guys?

Thanks guys,

Bo
 
Bo-dacious said:
Yes, I've changed the angle to meet the edge angle on both sides. I kept increasing the angle to get a burr but I still didn't get a burr. this has happened on many knives. It's always on the 600 grit, whether it's the 1 inch or the half inch stone. So I know I'm hitting the apex because I've increased the angle so much that only the apex was being touched. Still no burr. There has to be something about the shit 600 grit that is making this happen. I've felt 1000 grit and higher burrs before, so Im pretty sure the case isn't such that I have a burr and I'm not feeling it. Are there any super geniuses out there who can figure out what's going on with the information I've given? And ask me anything you need to find the answer. I appreciate the help.
Click to expand...
Hi,
Well, you've been through this process a few times now,
so which questions haven't been asked ? or you haven't answered?
It should be easy to answer if you consult your notes ;)
 
I found the EdgePro #600 to be very fine and easily burnished or clogged.
 
Bucket: The question that hasn't been answered (well, not an answer that's helped...though I do appreciate the effort) is why am I not getting a burr on the 600 grit when I am getting swarf, hitting the apex and doing hundreds of strokes. If what you guys say is true, "If you're not getting a burr you're not hitting the apex" then why am I not getting a burr?
Can anybody answer that?

miso2: good point. I will level it before I try next.

Thanks guys,

Bo
 
I had a similar experience when first starting to use my Edge Pro. Felt like I would get almost no burr on the 600 grit stone. I'd examine the edge and could see I was definitely sharpening right up to the apex. My guess was that I was breaking off the burr with overly-aggressive push strokes, so I started finishing with progressively lighter pull strokes only and noticed a difference. Other things you could try are making sure your stones are level, adjusting angle arm when changing stones to account for varying stone thickness, and cleaning stones occasionally during sharpening to reduce clogging.

If all else fails, post some pictures of the knife blade and your sharpening stone. That might help identify what is going on.

Also, I found these videos very helpful when get started with Edge Pro:
 
Let's refer to Secret #4, Observation:

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-seven-secrets-of-sharpening.1353408/page-2#post-15569565

The burr is just an observational technique. It's a SUPER important observation to make, but it is NOT the only observation you can make about how you are progressing in sharpening your edge. What does the burr tell you when you see (observe) it? It tells you that you have ground all the way to the apex where you see/feel/observe the burr.

If you have already formed a burr at a lower grit, then we know that the bevels have met and we have a very sharp edge. That part of our work is already done. So what does a burr at a higher grit tell us later? That we have again made the bevels meet and this time with a higher grit, and we should have more POLISHED bevels. Pay attention here.

This does not tell us ANYTHING about the level of polish. It does not tell us if we should stop grinding or continue. All we know when forming a burr is this: The bevels have met.

If your goal is to have a more polished edge by using higher grit stones, then you need to evaluate your level of polish and performance some other way. How?? Well, you can observe the scratch pattern and decide if this stone has polished the edge enough. Transforming the scratch pattern from the more coarse pattern of the previous stone to the pattern of the new higher grit stone.

You can perform sharpness tests which should tell you that the performance of the blade edge has changed: Cut paper. Drag the edge across your fingernail. Cut a tomato. Shave arm hair. Any cut test which will show you (observation) that the edge performance has changed.

I hope you are getting the idea here that the burr is just ONE measure of ONE property of the edge. Using your observational skills and techniques involves a lot more than just the burr. Figure out what you want from your edge. Measure it in some way. Work. Observe. Adjust. Work. Observe. Adjust. Repeat.

Good luck to you.

Brian.
 
BTGuy: Okay, I tried your advice and I'm starting to get a burr. I levelled the stone and only did pull strokes. That was a big help, thank you! For some reason when I check for a burr the next day it's gone but I'm just going to do the other side and see if it's sharper. I'm very happy about the burr.

Brian: Great information. So are you saying that if say on 1000 grit I get a burr, If I keep sharpening on 1000 it will get sharper or do you mean increase the grit?

Thanks a lot guys,

Bo
 
Once aagain i posted something and its noot here. Anyway, I did the pull strokes only technique and i got a small burr. I switched sides and didnt get a burr. I raised the angle several times and i got a burr in some places but no burr in other places. and the burrs i do get dissapear when i go to feel for them again. Guys, Im at a loss. the knife didnt get any sharper when cutting paper so i dont know what to do. Ive had problems on the work sharp that i still cant figure out as well. I swear Im doing everything the same as in the youtube videos. This is so unlikely its surreal. I know this is probably a lost cause but if anyone else has any other ideas Im all ears. Brian like i said in the post that dissapeared thats greaat information msn, thank you.

Thanks guys,

Bo
 
What is the steel you were sharpening?
In my limited experience, CPM steels tend to get lingering burr/wire edge, which is hard to remove.

Also, is the knife flat ground?
 
I should note i just noticed that one side feels sharp one side feels dull when i rub my thumb perpendicular to the edge. Does that tell you guys anything? I do the same thing on both sides except the angle was slightly different....should I keep the angles the same if I can?

Thanks,

Bo
 
Bo-dacious said:
Bucket: The question that hasn't been answered (well, not an answer that's helped...though I do appreciate the effort) is why am I not getting a burr on the 600 grit when I am getting swarf, hitting the apex and doing hundreds of strokes. If what you guys say is true, "If you're not getting a burr you're not hitting the apex" then why am I not getting a burr?
Can anybody answer that?
Click to expand...
Hi,
I addition to what bgentry and BTGuy said, because you're sharpening ceramic?

Ceramic will not burr cause its ceramic


Because you're troubleshooting over the internet,
"What knife are you sharpening and what is it made from?"
is just one of the regular questions that ought to be on your list :)



Bo-dacious said:
Once aagain i posted something and its noot here. Anyway, I did the pull strokes only technique and i got a small burr. I switched sides and didnt get a burr. I raised the angle several times and i got a burr in some places but no burr in other places. and the burrs i do get dissapear when i go to feel for them again. Guys, Im at a loss. the knife didnt get any sharper when cutting paper so i dont know what to do. Ive had problems on the work sharp that i still cant figure out as well. I swear Im doing everything the same as in the youtube videos. This is so unlikely its surreal. I know this is probably a lost cause but if anyone else has any other ideas Im all ears. Brian like i said in the post that dissapeared thats greaat information msn, thank you.

Thanks guys,

Bo
Click to expand...
Hi,
Does the knife get duller on paper?
Does it get snaggy?
What do you see when you look at the edge closely?
Feel it with your fingernail?
Is the edge crumbling away?
How thick is the edge?
How was it used/abused/maintained?

Issues sharpening a heavily abused knife - Yanagi-ba - YouTube

Bo-dacious said:
I should note i just noticed that one side feels sharp one side feels dull when i rub my thumb perpendicular to the edge. Does that tell you guys anything? I do the same thing on both sides except the angle was slightly different....should I keep the angles the same if I can?

Thanks,

Bo
Click to expand...
Hi,
The angle of your thumbing was slightly different?

If one side feels grabby and the other smooth, thats folded over burr
Stand it up with alternating passes, the cut it off with double angle passes
 
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