Skipping grits - still get burr?

Okay so like I said I got a burr with the 650 diamond matrix stone but it didn't get much sharper, then on the 1100 diamond stone I don't know if I got a burr, it feels like a tiny one, but it got duller not sharper. Does anyone know why these things happen??? Could it be because I increased the angle too much when removing the burr? It was only by a few degrees. I don't understand why I'm having such a hard time, most knives even s110v have gone much easier. But I have to figure this out. I'm starting to think there's something wrong with the edge pro itself. I'm going to try the 1000 grit stone and see what adventure that takes me on.


Obsessed: I got a burr at 220 grit and 400 grit, I'm having trouble with 600 grit regular edge pro stone and 1100 grit diamond matrix stone.
1. This is a cheap knife, so I'd think tit's not too hard. I'm also hit or miss with the diamond matrix stones.
2. I tried leveling the 600 to expose a new surface but that didn't work.
3. This is possible as it has a lot of black Marks on it. I cleaned it with baking soda but it didn't go away. Any other ideas?

So once again, my knife only feels sharp on one side even after I remove the burr. This has to be it...any tips on why I might be getting this?

Thanks guys,

Bo
 
Bo-dacious said:
So once again, my knife only feels sharp on one side even after I remove the burr. This has to be it...any tips on why I might be getting this?
Click to expand...
Hi,
If you've removed burr, "deburred" , but you still feel sharp on one side only, a sign of burr, you are not done deburring.

Solution is simple, deburr again, up to 10 times (giant burr)
That is,
~40 degrees per side,
ultra light force, under 100 grams/~3.6oz, "ideally" under 1oz/~28grams
edge leading pass
two times one pass per side
short travel (1inch strokes, usually only need for extreme end of burry steel)
then backsharpen
that is back to original angle , not ~40 degrees per side angle
and do two to ten times one pass per side

then check for burr again , feel for it with fingertips/fingernail before/after you see how its pushcuts/slices paper (thin burr will fold here ) and cuts wood (thicker burr will fold here )

After 5-10 attempts at deburr/backsharpen,
you can assume thats as good as its gonna get for now,
and live with the results until next sharpening ,
or
for entertainment,
see what happens when you
... try if you've got a rod sharpener for microbevel, might be a cure for Sharpening very low grade steel knives
or
cut off the damaged edge (cut into stone like Sergeua says) and sharpen again,
... could try try to avoid raising much of a burr if any
... it might take a while (or never) to remove the damage (as per linked videos )
 
It does sound like there's still a burr, as described by it feeling sharp on only one side and not the other. I'd suspect this behavior even more on a 'cheap knife', as described, which usually will be softish, ductile, low-alloy stainless steel, and are notorious for their burrs flipping back & forth all day without breaking off.

On such steels, instead of raising the angle to deburr, I've always preferred using a fabric/denim strop with an aggressive aluminum oxide polishing compound, like white rouge or a polishing paste like Simichrome or Flitz, or Mother's Mag aluminum wheel polish. It's a fast and relatively easy path to a clean, shaving-sharp edge on cheap, soft stainless knives. This isn't to say it's not possible to deburr on the hone as well; with a diamond hone in particular, a well-practiced and experienced light touch at the same sharpening angle works well to thin soft/ductile burrs enough that they'll be easily stripped away in the first cut or two into something like cardboard or wood, or even the edge of a sheet of paper. The idea is to keep pressure very, very light at the original sharpening angle, and allow the clean-cutting diamond to thin the burr without prematurely folding it over, as would happen with heavier pressure, which leaves a thicker burr at the edge and is always more of a pain to clean up.
 
Okay this is good stuff guys. I'm going to try to remove the burr again then strop or hone it and see what I get.

Obsessed: I didn't fully follow your post but I think I got most of it.

Thanks guys,

Bo
 
At 320 grit or above, your edge should be very sharp if you have fully apexed the edge and fully removed the burr. At a minimum I would expect a proper 320 grit edge to do the following:

* Push cut printer paper
* Slice cut phonebook paper
* Roughly shave arm hair
* Cut the hell out of any "normal" stuff you cut with it like cardboard, blister packs, vegetables, etc.

If it fails to do the first 3, the blade isn't sharp yet. It's either not apexed, or still has burr. Don't move to higher grits until you get this level of performance from the 320 (or so) grit stone in your system.

Brian.
 
good point Brian - and if you are loosing your edge between 320 and XXX grit, something is off somewhere in that ('your') system.

if you increased the angle to remove the burr, and then kept working the edge past that burr and created a micro bevel - you might not been back at the apex with the 1100 grit stone.

its tough to pinpoint an issue like this over the internet though - there's quite a few things that could be causing issue, that would be almost impossible to pinpoint without seeing it in person
 
Brian: oh really? Ok so do you think Its still not properly apexed? I got a full burr on both sides at 220 and 400. Should I go back to 220 and try to get it apexed again? If I get another full burr on both sides should that help apex it better? Could this be the reason I can't get a burr at higher grits?

L1ranger: ok so maybe I made a microbevel. Is that possible with 1-2 strokes on junk steel?

The edge is over 30 dps. I was thinking of reprofiling it to 20 dps. Would that help you think?

Thanks guys,

Bo
 
Bo-dacious said:
The edge is over 30 dps. I was thinking of reprofiling it to 20 dps. Would that help you think?
Click to expand...

That's a very, very obtuse edge. It's not another karambit is it?

It's hard to make good recommendations if the blade is strange in some way: Bad steel, funky shape, ultra thick, obtuse edge, specialized use, etc.

As I've recommended before, you should really, really, really be using normal blades with normal steel and normal shapes as you are learning. It's just my recommendation to try to help you improve. You can, of course, ignore me if you'd like.

Brian.
 
Serg: I've already practiced a lot on good steels with no problem. I want to open a sharpening business one day, so I have to be able to sharpen anything.

Brian: no, it's a chef's knife. I would never ignore your advice, Brian. I find it extremely wise and insightful. After this knife I will practice on good steels until I don't have any problems anymore. So the edge is too obtuse so I should set it at like 20 degrees, right?

Thanks guys,

Bo
 
I think any chef's knife should be fine with a 20 degree per side edge angle (40 degrees total). Even 15 degrees per side (30 degrees total) is probably fine. The blade will absolutely cut better with the more acute (smaller) angle.

You don't have to sharpen great steels to learn. You just want to make sure that you are sharpening steel capable of holding an edge. Examples of bad steels would be the kind of steel used in typical Pakistani weapons type blades (like you might find at a flea market), steels used in "fantasy" knives that were never meant to really be used, etc. As long as you are sharpening a real knife (meaning that it's meant to cut things and not to just look cool) and it has some sort of decent steel, you should be fine. AUS8, 440C, 1095, 8Cr13MoV, etc are all just fine. There are dozens more that are equally as good. I only mentioned bad steel meaning the really bad stuff, or steel that's been burned or otherwise heat treated incorrectly.

Good luck on your continuing sharpening journey. :)

Brian.
 
Brian: okay, I'll put it at 20 dps for this one. so why is it futile to sharpen a steel that can't hold an edge? How does it affect the actual sharpening process?

Thanks again for your ongoing help,

Bo
 
Bo-dacious said:
Brian: okay, I'll put it at 20 dps for this one. so why is it futile to sharpen a steel that can't hold an edge? How does it affect the actual sharpening process?

Thanks again for your ongoing help,

Bo
Click to expand...

The really 'bad' steels of unknown origin can often behave in very strange ways, in trying to sharpen them. As such, it's difficult to know what to expect from them, in terms of when or if they'll form a burr, or even if they'll actually take a fine edge in the first place. I've seen a couple that didn't burr at all, but instead the edge just seemed to crumble away into dust when it was made thin enough to expect a burr.

It's not that it's entirely futile to sharpen them, or at least try to. But only that it's probably futile to expect typical behavior from them in the sharpening process, as compared to better quality steels actually made & heat-treated to take and hold a very sharp edge. It's also generally futile in trying to learn much from them, in terms of seeing expected behaviors. At some point down the road, after struggling with such bad blades, something might eventually be learned about how they can go so wrong in the first place, due to bad or non-existent heat treat, heat damage caused by factory grinding, or issues with steel impurity or lousy elemental makeup (carbon content too low, for example). But it takes some time to recognize it for what it is, after getting a feel for sharpening better steels that behave as expected, and comparing those to the really bad ones.
 
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Obsessed: Very insightful...okay so until I'm really good with the edge pro I will only sharpen on steels I know (after I continue to struggle with this one, I'm taking this problem personally). I'm going to try reprofiling the knife when I have time and I'll let you guys know.

Thanks man,

Bo
 
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