Slipjoint stuff...

I'd just like to say that this thread, imho, is a nice opportunity for BFC members to "listen" and maybe share in a discussion of some thought provoking questions with blade experts. Thanks for stopping in Steven. Hope you'll do so more often.

Although I am a regular visitor in this forum, I am far less informed than many of you on the subject of traditional knives and the history of that culture, and for that matter what defines a quality production or custom pocketknife according to "the market." That being said, I think I have learned to recognize a good knife when I see it or handle it. Much of that awareness has been a bonus of being a Bladeforums member for the last several years, and from being a knifeknut for near 50 years.

It sounds like Mr. Bose very specifically addressed the 1st question posed in the opening post of this thread regarding Bose BP folders.

I would be interested to know more about what are the generally agreed upon criteria that define optimal blade to handle ratio in folding pocketknives. It's not unusual to hear discussion of balance, speed in handling, and ergonomics when people discuss fixed blade knives, but I don't think I've seen as much discussion related to traditional folders. In short, what I am asking is what are the elements of the formula which defines good blade to handle ratio in traditional pocketknives? Does it just feel right? Or is there a basic set of standards that can be applied to all the different forms and functions in the pocketknife world?

I don't mean to be too wordy here, and I will appreciate your tolerance of my curiosity.
(Blame Mr. Folksy Kohai for asking such good questions. :))
 
Everything Tony said is true except for my thinking he was "cocking off".

Well, maybe I did at that. He did have a little fun at my expense until he decided to give me a call one Sunday morning and offer to make me a knife.

For that, I'll take near any amount of Tony's ribbing and a blade of any length! :D :thumbup:
 
I agree, I kind of like to see a black hearted poster getting our dander up every now and then. At one time I too was big on blade to handle ratio but it just doesn't bother me much anymore as long as the knife is comfortable to use.
 
Good thread folksy folk. Thanks for starting it Steven. I've noticed that I'm more attracted to the slip joints that have a good handle to blade ratio myself. I know it's aesthetics more then anything functional.

I've had good luck with the custom/handmade slip joints I own but I have had at least one that had too many "edges". I think the soft hand inspection is a pretty good suggestion.
 
All I know is now, I have this urge to make a slip joint with a blade that looks like a woman's leg. :D
 
KnifeHead said:
All I know is now, I have this urge to make a slip joint with a blade that looks like a woman's leg. :D
Click to expand...

Oh, I can see it now...the blade asking the scales: "Do these bolsters make my ass look big?" :p
 
I am interested in learning more about "hot edges" . When I make a slipjoint I seem to strive for that crisp clean look that most buyers want and looks good to the eye. Are the hot edges mainly along the back spine of the blade/blades or along the edges of the frame? I wonder if any of the other makers have purposely broke these edges more than just running a fine stone across them. I only ask these question in the hopes of making a better knife.

Ken Erickson
 
A "hot edge" will show up in several places. The inside edges of the liners of the trough, around shields in uneven handle material like stag, squared bolsters, any outside edges that are exposed.
 
Thanks for the quick response Kerry. Do you break the inside edges of the liners or even go so far as chamfering or putting a radius on these edges?

Ken
 
Blues said:
Oh, I can see it now...the blade asking the scales: "Do these bolsters make my ass look big?" :p
Click to expand...

LMAO :D:thumbup:

The blade says to the bolsters: "These ivory scales make me feel like an elephant!" ;)
 
keep it simple Ken...just knock the edges off with a fine Scotchbrite wheel or buffer just enough to break the edge and you will still keep that crisp look.

(an old indian showed me that trick) :)
 
Much Thanks Kerry, amazing what can be learned hanging out here!

Ken
 
fewpop said:
It sounds like Mr. Bose very specifically addressed the 1st question posed in the opening post of this thread regarding Bose BP folders.

I would be interested to know more about what are the generally agreed upon criteria that define optimal blade to handle ratio in folding pocketknives. It's not unusual to hear discussion of balance, speed in handling, and ergonomics when people discuss fixed blade knives, but I don't think I've seen as much discussion related to traditional folders. In short, what I am asking is what are the elements of the formula which defines good blade to handle ratio in traditional pocketknives?

(Blame Mr. Folksy Kohai for asking such good questions. :))
Click to expand...

1. Ford, Mr. Bose did indeed specifically address my question...and while I humbly submit that his statement concerning hand-made knives and blade length to be perfectly valid, were I able to order a Backpocket model, would request the longest length blade possible, within his stated tolerances.

2. There will be no consensus in GENERAL concerning blade-to-handle ratios in traditional folders, because, as has already pointed out, there are too many variables, and is ultimately subjective, due to taste, and use requirements.

I grew up with the Camillus Scout knife, still have it, as a matter of fact, and it has that rich blue/brown/grey patina many of you enjoy....it sits in a first-aid kit, is a pleasant reminder of youth, and while it holds that special place...I never really liked the knife. I always wanted this one, but couldn't afford it as a 14 year-old Scout:

It set the standard for what I liked in a pocket knife, and looking back, that is where it started for this pattern....fast forward, and I find the Queen Large Stockman to have the ideal blade to handle ratio, or the Gunstock from Canal Street, roughly 3 3/8" to 3 1/2" blade to 4 1/4" handle...there is no mathematical formula, necessarily sought, it is that the blade is ideally about 3/4" less in length than the handle, maybe a bit longer blade when it can practically be done(almost never can be, though), and this is constant for these larger patterns. I don't mess with the smaller knives, with spear points or Wharncliffes as the main blade in a Stockman pattern....my focus is in single blades, up to the Mountain Man pattern, but in a slipjoint, two blade slim trappers, large copperheads, and large 3-blade stockman.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
as well as the next question…..how come, of the 8 or so knifemakers that I have in my slipjoint collection, one of if not THE best, came from a Japanese fella’ named Ohta?
Click to expand...

Steven, thanks for the feedback to my post.

Your other question which I quote here also interests me. Would you flesh out the question a bit more? At the risk of misinterpreting your point, are you suggesting an incongruency that a Japanese knifemaker would create a more flawless knife in a traditional American pattern than some traditional American makers? Are you suggesting that some American makers should rise to that standard because they represent the American traditional pattern standards? I really am curious and trying to learn here. Thanks in advance.:)
 
fewpop said:
Steven, thanks for the feedback to my post.

Your other question which I quote here also interests me. Would you flesh out the question a bit more? At the risk of misinterpreting your point, are you suggesting an incongruency that a Japanese knifemaker would create a more flawless knife in a traditional American pattern than some traditional American makers? Are you suggesting that some American makers should rise to that standard because they represent the American traditional pattern standards? I really am curious and trying to learn here. Thanks in advance.:)
Click to expand...


Ford,

Would suggest that Tony Bose does a clip point slipjoint large master blade probably better than any other single maker, and that Queen and Canal Street
do the same for the production end of things....American makers have NO end to inspiration to do it right...they can pick up the phone, ask questions in their native tongue, and go to the store and pick up examples at less than full retail which they can take apart, examine and duplicate....but they almost never do....they stubbornly decide that THEY know how to do it better.

I request a common pattern(Slim WharncliffeTrapper, by Case) which the Case/Bose SS collab NAILED for example, from 4 well-known American makers, in pearl or stag,with specific instructions, and suggestions and have gotten, in no particular order; cracked scales, sharp edges where they don't belong, funky blade to handle ratios, the wrong size, when specified what the right size is, side to side play, exposed tangs that are 3/4" long when opened, blades bottoming out, FAT ass ends, wharncliffe blade sticking up WAY proud when the clip is open and gaposis....to mention a few.

Can imagine that it is hard to build a slipjoint, it is the only type of knife that I have never tried to build myself, mostly because I don't have access to a knee mill anymore, and suck at interpolating radii(for the relief and boss inside the scales)

But this Japanese guy, who doesn't have easy access to any of this stuff, just frikkin kills the pattern, as stated before, with the exception of showing some color in the scales, which is a personal preference, this knife smokes, and it was less than $700.00...it costs a fortune to buy anything in Japan, too...was there for two weeks in November and 1 mixed drink in a hotel bar is about $15.00.

Have been actively collecting knives for over 20 years, and I speak the language, but it is much harder to get the good stuff in slipjoints from American makers than it is in ANY other segment of customs, and this includes hand-made swords. I am suggesting that if the American fellas making traditional slipjoint patterns cannot raise the bar quickly, that this demanding discipline may be better suited to others....or, bluntly put, in the words of my mentor...."I don't want to have to pay shop rates for someone else to learn how to do their job, on the job".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Thanks again Steven. I appreciate your thoughtful response, and it helps me understand what you were getting at. :thumbup:
 
When you use a folding knife, the optimum configuration consists of: a comfortable handle suited to the task, a properly shaped blade of durable and maintainable material, and a sturdy construction with good working geometry in the mechanical joints. When these conditions are met, the knife is beautiful, IMHO. Form FOLLOWS function.
Having spent several years of my life in the custom leather business, making bags, shoes, belts, briefcases, and myriad other useful items from dead cows, I found I needed to keep my knife in my pocket to prevent others less focused than myself from having a detrimental effect on my blade. Leaving it around the shop was not an option. A folder worked well.
Through constant use, blades wore down, and got really good for what I was doing. A blade much shorter than the handle provided the best tool. To this day, I don't like too much blade in any knife - - just enough is best. A side benefit is less stress on the joint, so less eventual wobble over a reasonable time period.
The geometric requirement changes when you are preparing food. A folding knife is a compromise tool for the job. Acids, juices and blood get into places where they are not welcome. A long blade often becomes an asset, and it's usually longer than the handle, except for paring and peeling.
A fixed blade is obviously the best tool in almost every case.
Back to folders, if the blade and handle suit the tasks usually performed, the knife is beautiful. If the proportions are pleasant, so much the better, but an ideal hand filling 4 to 4 1/4" handle doesn't need 3 1/2" of blade in my opinion. I'd rather see the spring extend into the "objectionable" 1/4" gap than have a blade too long and unwieldy for precise cutting.
I don't discount the knife as sculpture. When it is beautiful in finish and proportion (with no hot spots), it is eminently viewable and fondle-able (sp?), and life is good! It doesn't need every last 1/8" of blade though.
 
Steven,

Great Thread! I learned bunches from all that has been written so far. Anyone else pick anything up from Tony, in the 11 lines he wrote? It made my head spin!:D

I was pretty bummed out when I read that the Boys at WiIlfred, Don't wear capes!

Steven, have you tried any of the other Case Collabs? I think that you would be pleasantly surprised. To me, their the slickest knife that Case has made. Just my 2Cents.

Kent
 
waynorth said:
When you use a folding knife, the optimum configuration consists of: a comfortable handle suited to the task, a properly shaped blade of durable and maintainable material, and a sturdy construction with good working geometry in the mechanical joints. When these conditions are met, the knife is beautiful, IMHO. Form FOLLOWS function.
Having spent several years of my life in the custom leather business, making bags, shoes, belts, briefcases, and myriad other useful items from dead cows, I found I needed to keep my knife in my pocket to prevent others less focused than myself from having a detrimental effect on my blade. Leaving it around the shop was not an option. A folder worked well.
Through constant use, blades wore down, and got really good for what I was doing. A blade much shorter than the handle provided the best tool. To this day, I don't like too much blade in any knife - - just enough is best. A side benefit is less stress on the joint, so less eventual wobble over a reasonable time period.
The geometric requirement changes when you are preparing food. A folding knife is a compromise tool for the job. Acids, juices and blood get into places where they are not welcome. A long blade often becomes an asset, and it's usually longer than the handle, except for paring and peeling.
A fixed blade is obviously the best tool in almost every case.
Back to folders, if the blade and handle suit the tasks usually performed, the knife is beautiful. If the proportions are pleasant, so much the better, but an ideal hand filling 4 to 4 1/4" handle doesn't need 3 1/2" of blade in my opinion. I'd rather see the spring extend into the "objectionable" 1/4" gap than have a blade too long and unwieldy for precise cutting.
I don't discount the knife as sculpture. When it is beautiful in finish and proportion (with no hot spots), it is eminently viewable and fondle-able (sp?), and life is good! It doesn't need every last 1/8" of blade though.
Click to expand...

Sounds like ole Charlie has used a knife a lot. I'm with Charlie, I think too much is put in to blade length. In all of history in pocket knives they never mentioned blade length, they always gave the handle length because that's what goes in your pocket fellows. I never talk to someone about blade lengths because it's a modern thing. I always tell them it's like a womans legs. There is no ratio for it, if the tang is right then it goes from one end to the other when it's closed.
 
Tony Bose said:
Sounds like ole Charlie has used a knife a lot. I'm with Charlie, I think too much is put in to blade length. In all of history in pocket knives they never mentioned blade length, they always gave the handle length because that's what goes in your pocket fellows. I never talk to someone about blade lengths because it's a modern thing. I always tell them it's like a womans legs. There is no ratio for it, if the tang is right then it goes from one end to the other when it's closed.
Click to expand...

I agree, I have some knives where the blades are way shorter than the typical ratio and I DON'T MIND IT AT ALL. I still can't figure out why it's even an issue.

BTW tony, your knives are amazing. Someday, oh someday...:)
 
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