Slipjoint users in the 1800-1900's: did they expect Fit & Finish we do?

If you enjoy "traditional" knives and you only pay attention to new knives, you are missing out ...not just on the oldies, but full appreciation of the new knives as well.

According to GEC's "about" page...
Our manufacturing company established in August of 2006 in Titusville, PA, has begun a renaissance in classic traditional pocket knives by recreating the old knife patterns as close to authentic as has been seen in 75 years.
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I bet there were some long days for the guy at the front of the grinding wheel, but he probably got very good at it after a while.

henckelswheel005.jpg
 
Mike Robuck said:
I bet there were some long days for the guy at the front of the grinding wheel, but he probably got very good at it after a while.

henckelswheel005.jpg
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He probably had to serve a long apprenticeship before they turned him loose at the grinder with any production blade blanks. He may have spent years grinding and filing, learning his trade.
 
Some of us were talking and showing old knives to to Bill Howard at the Rendezvous.

As he marveled at an old Northfield knife that Parke1 showed him, he exclaimed "That's my brand" !

As he looked the knife over carefully, he voulnteered that GEC could make a knife that good, however, it would slow production substantially and make it very hard to compete in today's knife market.

Bill said that he appreciated everyone bringing the old knives and that they inspire him. He asked me if I had some old John Primble India Steel Works knives (somebody told him, I guess) and I went to the car and brought a few back for him to examine. One of them was my Pillbuster. I noticed that he examined them very closely, unlike most people you hand a knife to.

We all had a good time discussing the old and new knives. I mentioned to Bill that GEC is undoubtedly the number one production knife of interest on Blade Forums. It seemed to please him.

My opinion, from having many of both, old and new ............ GEC is very close to as good of quality and the best quality of modern production companies. The hammered and smaller pins on the older knives is more attractive to me.

Keeping skilled workers for as long, in today's world, has to be a another concern for modern knife companies.

:)
 
Jack Black said:
Just to add that I think one of the factors (and there are many) which led to the decline of quality in Sheffield cutlery was the huge number of Sheffield cutlers and apprentice cutlers who never returned from the Somme during WW1, where the Sheffield Regiment was virtually wiped out. Thousands more died during WW2 too.
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Europe lost so much due to those wars, especially WW1 which was a meat grinder for both sides. A tragic waste of a generation of young men.

In U.S. knives, I think there is a marked difference between pre-WW2 and post-WW2 knives. One thing I've noticed in the small sample I have, is the change from a swedge on both sides of the main blade to only on the mark side after the war. I'd love to know if I'm right or wrong about this!
 
This is an excellent article (see link for the full reprint). There's also a 3 part video of GEC's manufacturing process on Youtube if you want to compare the processes.

MAKING POCKETKNIVES IN SHEFFIELD, 1840

by Bernard Levine, (c)1992
"Knife Lore" #53 [part], National Knife Magazine, December 1992

Frank Puncer of Arizona sent in a 1952 reprint of an
article originally published in the Sheffield Mechanics'
Exhibition Magazine, September 12, 1840, which describes the
sequence of processes involved in making a pocketknife blade
in Sheffield at that time. This was generations before power
hammers were accepted for use in the English cutlery
industry, although French cutlers had begun using water-
driven tilt hammers for blade forging back in the previous
century.
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http://www.knife-expert.com/shfpen.txt
 
major_works said:
I'm sure the quality of a new Ulster knife in that era was exceptional, but did contemporary consumers look at F&F? Maybe, but I'd bet not like the denizens of this forum do today. The original owners of the knives prized by modern collectors were buying tools that they used from day to day. Is it sharp? Does it perform the way I need it to? Is it solid and dependable? Those are likely the questions that mattered. If it looked nice and didn't snag in the pocket, so much the better.
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I'd have to agree. If I'm buying a beater, working knife even today, I'll forgive plenty of flaws if it's sharp, dependable and does the job I need.

I liken it to classic cars. It's been a hobby of my father's and mine for many years- started with a 65 Mustang, then a 57 Chevy, 40 Willys, 55 and 53 Chevys, then now a 62 Porsche 356B.

Classics all, but look close and you see flaws that never would make it out of a factory today. The Porsche, there are welds in the body pan that are half on and off the seam. Willys was famous for cracking motor mounts, just vibrating them to death. The Chevys would go maybe 50-75K miles before needing a major motor rebuild.

There are gems, there are perfect pieces, but then as now, most were good enough for the job at hand.
 
RDaneel said:
Europe lost so much due to those wars, especially WW1 which was a meat grinder for both sides. A tragic waste of a generation of young men.
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Yes indeed, I'm sure Solingen and Thiers lost many fine cutlers, very sad.
 
VERY INTERESTING THREAD!!

I spent some years trying to assemble a notable collection of Empire (approx. 1858 to 1920) knives. I have recently sold the collection on, but recall it was relatively easy to find fancy smaller, well-fitted pen knives in excellent condition, but larger working knives, or hunting knives were often worn, or even worn out.
The gentleman's or gentlewoman's knives had very high levels of finish, and the workmanship was often exquisite. They must have been relatively expensive.
Larger jacks were much simpler, more often had ebony or cocobolo handles, and a large percentage of them showed a lot of wear.
I have read bits of advertising stating that some knives were warranted against "soft" blades, implying, I think, that heat treatment was not as exact as it is today!
 
Also back in those days Labour costs were nothing - whereas these days it's a complete turnaround - time these days Costs money. So the process would have taken longer per knife.
These days processes are put in to save time.
So all in all I believe that in most cases the quality will have been better- along with HIGHLY Skilled craftsman that were around more in those days.
 
I would imagine that people's expectations were similar to today. Some demanded top quality, some were OK with shoddy work as long as it cut and didn't cost much. Most of my antique knives are high quality, but I have seen a few that were not so good.

As has been pointed out, the difference then was cheap labor. You could get a lot of quality work for little cost. A consequence of cheap labor was that the buying public did not have much money to spend on knives, so a lot of people at the lower end of the economic scale may have been more interested in the performance/cost ratio than in the absolute quality of the knife. But even the cheap knives of that era were higher quality than the cheap truck stop knives that you see today, it's not even close.

BTW, macchina, that image in your opening post is mine, borrowed by Blues to start the catalog thread. I have the original pages in my possession.
 
Nothing to chime in here myself but this thread has been an amazing informative read from start to here from the various members. The knives of older lore have always interested me as many things my great grandfather passed down to my grandfather to my father to myself have been made to last from each decade on and on, knives included.
 
Also, I think hand tools of any sort were expected to be of quality and last in those times.
 
No doubt there were exceptional knives made in the far past. I have handled and admired many of them, although most had at least a little wear to them. A couple things I have noticed nearly across the board on the "work" patterns. First, the stock was always substantial - making the patterns heavy but ready to last a lifetime (and usually rip a nail off). Second, there was most time at least a little "gapiness". Usually in the backsprings, but many times in the bone/bolster area as well. Possibly all these samples gained these minor spaces during the workday; thus if anyone has an example of a 60+ year old work knife that is water tight - I would enjoy seeing pictures.

There seemed to be a bit more experimenting with patterns back then as well. I would love to see today's makers hit us with some tipped bolster patterns. And although many older gentleman patterns had a somewhat ham-handed attempt at "worked" liners; I wish we could request some of that from our makers.

I guess as we age, older things seem more "middle aged". As I don't consider late 1970's to be older knives, but there are many German knives from this era that I feel rival 80-100 year old knives in fit / finish. And, in my opinion, we suffer a little "absence makes the heart grow fonder". Because for every mint condition 100 year old knife that we could find, I feel I could match it with a knife made in the last 25 years that a non-biased person would not be so quick to pick the winner. And there are a lot of brands from 100 years ago that were complete dogs as well. But history does not hold them dear in our minds; much as some of today's brands. It amazes me to peruse Levine's guide to brand names and their era's; and realize that there were hundreds of brands at any given time in history. And in the "Quality" column there was no era that jumps out with more "H"igh quality ratings than all others.

But, to the OP's question. Fit and Finish were probably different ideas to our great grandparents. They wanted a tool that worked efficiently and until they wore it out. Although we may use our knives as well, we place way more of our f/f grading on cosmetics. Not to say they didn't make or love a beautiful knife a hundred years ago, but I just don't see a field worker walking back into a lumber yard and telling the clerk "hey, if you hold this knife in the sunlight and tweak your head a little to the left - you can tell the blade is not dead centered" ;>
 
r8shell said:
Perhaps we have the sense that knives were all better made back then, because we only see the quality ones that didn't break. :D If a poorly made knife got too wobbly to use, or the backsprings snapped, it would have been thrown out long before we would have a chance to see it to compare.
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You can't prove that by me, see there's a contingent of old timers here who collect the less than perfect knives from yesteryear. We see a large variation of condition from broken blades to weak/broken springs and missing handles. I constantly see boxes of 70+ year old knives at yard sales and flea markets. Someone's hanging into them for a reason. :)

One common reason that you find broken old knives is the same reason you find broken new knives, abuse and neglect. People have abused knives for as long as they've been around, now a day's if we shall the top of a knife we send it back for repair, heck they even have spa treatments for knives these days so of course they seem like they're made better.

I think if you looked at today's knives a hundred years from now you'd find the same knives were either put away in perfect museum quality condition, broken in somebody's cigar box or sock drawer or slightly worn but functional nonetheless and being carried by someone like me in their pocket.

I think more companies made knives better and with more pride back then and without getting into the offshore issue there are only a handful of US manufacturers compared to 100 years ago when the competition was fierce. Nowadays if a knife is stamped USA anywhere on it our country pride kicks in and we'll buy it because we all know we make only the best.

No I don't think that's knives are better,I think they're better more consistently because of quality control programs but back in the day there was another type of quality control that required no program or supervision. It was called pride in your work, craftsmanship meant something to everyone. Those words are beginning to be heard more frequently these days, the remaining US manufacturers are all competing for our dollars and they're dealing with a more educated consumer these days. Modern technology affords us instant appraisals of current knives and their dependability. Between YouTube and online forums the US makers had to step up their game.

Let's compare today's knives a hundred years from now, I'll bet you'll find there will be more mint prefect condition knives than broken abused knives from the same time frame and you'll find the new 200+ year old knives in the same condition and the garage sales and flea markets will still be selling broken knives from the 20s-70s to people like me and someone will ask the same question again, "are today's knives made any better than the knives of yesteryear?" Of course no, we just take better care of them... I don't care how good a knife is but any knife neglected and abused is due to fail, it's inevitable.






JB in SC said:
Jack, this checks off every point :thumbup:
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I wish I had the ability to succinctly get my thoughts across like Jack, unfortunately I'm too dang wordy and what Jack can say in two or three sentences takes me a novel to say... ;)
 
Slipjoint users in the 1800-1900's: did they expect Fit & Finish we do?

Absolutely. They took pride in their work and had to be on top of their game to stay in business because there was so much competition in the cutlery business. Everyone carried a pocket knife back then, it was an essential tool for everyday tasks. They even made knives for boys that were made out of steel. The price range of knives was quite broad. If you look thru a 1914 catalog you had to make decent money to afford the fancy knives they put out for upper class people. Carpenters built houses with no power tools and did ornate finish work with planes and shave tools. There was no TV or radio and people used their hands and backs to make a living. Those cutlers were fine craftsmen because they were determined to be the best at their game and that is what put food on their tables and clothes on their backs. That was then.

I think GEC is the closest we have to what was done in those factories back then and I am grateful that they exist.
 
Knifeswaper said:
...Possibly all these samples gained these minor spaces during the workday; thus if anyone has an example of a 60+ year old work knife that is water tight - I would enjoy seeing pictures...
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They're out there but like it's already been said, people back then used and worked their knives a lot harder than today's enthusiast/collector does. Back then they were first tools unlike many today that are man jewelry, you wouldn't use a Rolex to open a box.
 
I am reminded of something Jack Black posted about Sheffield cutlery (sorry I can't find it right now.) There was a picture of a company's master cutlers, with a list of their ages and years of employment. It went something like this:

Joe So-and-so
age: 59
years of service: 50

That's more than just a job in our modern way of thought. It was a whole life.

Cutlers like that produced fine quality knives, no argument. I just try not to let nostalgia keep me from considering that, just like today, there may have also been made knives that were not so well made, but got the job done for a cheaper price.
 
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