Slipjoint users in the 1800-1900's: did they expect Fit & Finish we do?

[T. Erdelyi]

I meant to say that I have that Union Knifeworks Moose and you can't see a lick off daylight through the backsprings, there is zero blade wobble and the walk and talk of a true crafted tool. Even the Silver Knight series of the 70s , a drop point lockback made by Gerber held those same tight tolerances, here's a knife that's 45 years old and was the epitome of quality manufacturing. Ignore the statement about the Gerbers, I just remembered it was Herbert International and they were made in Japan. Still though it was a good example of what was capable of being made at the time.

 

[Alnamvet68]

Nothing beats a handcrafted folder from yesteryear; but modern manufacturing techniques sure is getting close.

 

[brownshoe]

Nothing beats a handcrafted folder from yesteryear; but modern manufacturing techniques sure is getting close.

I like the old ones too, but for me, the last two Case/Bose I bought, Norfolk whittler and Tribal spear are better than any folder from yesteryear. I like the modern steel plus stainless bolster and liners. A true improvement.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

Union Knifeworks NY Moose 1911-1913

I need to take a shot of the back springs, this was what they did over a hundred years ago, I think that's a testament to craftsmanship and what they could do with what would be considered today primitive tools.

 

[5K Qs]

Perhaps we have the sense that knives were all better made back then, because we only see the quality ones that didn't break. If a poorly made knife got too wobbly to use, or the backsprings snapped, it would have been thrown out long before we would have a chance to see it to compare.

This is a very enjoyable, thought-provoking thread! :thumbup:
I think Rachel's evolutionary, survival-of-the-fittest conjecture has a lot of explanatory power.

- GT

 

[r8shell]

I think Rachel's evolutionary, survival-of-the-fittest conjecture has a lot of explanatory power.

- GT

Thanks, GT. I like coming up with theories. I try not to confuse them with facts, though.

 

[Biggie_Robs]

There's some nice jigging these days, but speaking generally I'm much more impressed with the jigging on older knives than modern.

 

[knifeswapper]

Union Knifeworks NY Moose 1911-1913

Did you replace the bone? Did a really good job if you did! I was going to say that they didn't have the art of peening a backspring pin down back in the old days until I noticed the bone had been changed.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

All original it was covered in paint and rusted shut, when I finally got it open and noticed the main blade was broke. I finished cleaning it, cleaned the scales with mineral oil and after grinding the blade into a box cutter I started carrying it, it was a work knife for many years, cut up lots of cardboard. About 2 or 3 years ago with the help of the internet I found out it was over 100 years old and after restoring/cleaning it walks and talks like a Tony Bose knife.

Luckily it has long pulls on it and when I ground the blade down I still had plenty of nail nick left to easily open it. To date my favorite knife and I can't keep from throwing it in my pocket.

 

[knifeswapper]

The bone slabs are not a match. Factory may have mismatched them, but my guess is that at least one was replaced many years ago.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

I never noticed the peaned back doing before...

 

[Old Bowie]

I am reminded of something Jack Black posted about Sheffield cutlery (sorry I can't find it right now.) There was a picture of a company's master cutlers, with a list of their ages and years of employment. It went something like this:

Joe So-and-so
age: 59
years of service: 50

That's more than just a job in our modern way of thought. It was a whole life.

Cutlers like that produced fine quality knives, no argument. I just try not to let nostalgia keep me from considering that, just like today, there may have also been made knives that were not so well made, but got the job done for a cheaper price.

Exellent point r8shell - for example look at Stan Shaw one of the last of the "little mesters" in Sheffield is 87 and has been making knives for 72 years still going strong with high enough quality standards for the Queen.

 

[lambertiana]

if anyone has an example of a 60+ year old work knife that is water tight - I would enjoy seeing pictures.

I have a few. I'll get some pictures, but probably not until this weekend.

 

[Jack Black]

No doubt there were exceptional knives made in the far past. I have handled and admired many of them, although most had at least a little wear to them. A couple things I have noticed nearly across the board on the "work" patterns. First, the stock was always substantial - making the patterns heavy but ready to last a lifetime (and usually rip a nail off). Second, there was most time at least a little "gapiness". Usually in the backsprings, but many times in the bone/bolster area as well. Possibly all these samples gained these minor spaces during the workday; thus if anyone has an example of a 60+ year old work knife that is water tight - I would enjoy seeing pictures.

There seemed to be a bit more experimenting with patterns back then as well. I would love to see today's makers hit us with some tipped bolster patterns. And although many older gentleman patterns had a somewhat ham-handed attempt at "worked" liners; I wish we could request some of that from our makers.

I guess as we age, older things seem more "middle aged". As I don't consider late 1970's to be older knives, but there are many German knives from this era that I feel rival 80-100 year old knives in fit / finish. And, in my opinion, we suffer a little "absence makes the heart grow fonder". Because for every mint condition 100 year old knife that we could find, I feel I could match it with a knife made in the last 25 years that a non-biased person would not be so quick to pick the winner. And there are a lot of brands from 100 years ago that were complete dogs as well. But history does not hold them dear in our minds; much as some of today's brands. It amazes me to peruse Levine's guide to brand names and their era's; and realize that there were hundreds of brands at any given time in history. And in the "Quality" column there was no era that jumps out with more "H"igh quality ratings than all others.

But, to the OP's question. Fit and Finish were probably different ideas to our great grandparents. They wanted a tool that worked efficiently and until they wore it out. Although we may use our knives as well, we place way more of our f/f grading on cosmetics. Not to say they didn't make or love a beautiful knife a hundred years ago, but I just don't see a field worker walking back into a lumber yard and telling the clerk "hey, if you hold this knife in the sunlight and tweak your head a little to the left - you can tell the blade is not dead centered" ;>

All good observations I think :thumbup: When I talk to old Sheffield cutlers, who for the most part, have plied their trade at a time when producing a good working pattern at a reasonable price was more important than producing something of cosmetic excellence, they don't seem to see light between the springs/liners as a flaw. In the distant past, on a working knife, maybe it wasn't either. However, I have a number of old knives, which are absolutely tight, sometimes despite their clearly having been abused, and they are not always the fanciest knives either. Therefore, I think that there must have been a time when, just as old cutlers once took pride in producing knives with 'clean and square' joints, so must they have taken pride in producing knives without gaps - either that or it's just a coincidence that there are no gaps!

Most of us who have old knives will have noted how well they sharpen up. However, going further back in time, the steel must have been softer I think. The production of spring knives with round tangs (first of all by French cutlers) was seen as quite revolutionary in its day, because the problem of the square tangs wearing the spring (and thus causing the point of the knife to sit proud of the frame) was a real issue. Of course, people used their KNIFE (most probably singular) much more then, but I think it also indicates softer steel. At least one esteemed cutlery historian notes that the Sheffield cutlers may have been slow to adopt round tangs because it would ultimately lead to them selling less knives!

You can't prove that by me, see there's a contingent of old timers here who collect the less than perfect knives from yesteryear. We see a large variation of condition from broken blades to weak/broken springs and missing handles. I constantly see boxes of 70+ year old knives at yard sales and flea markets. Someone's hanging into them for a reason.

One common reason that you find broken old knives is the same reason you find broken new knives, abuse and neglect. People have abused knives for as long as they've been around, now a day's if we shall the top of a knife we send it back for repair, heck they even have spa treatments for knives these days so of course they seem like they're made better.

I think if you looked at today's knives a hundred years from now you'd find the same knives were either put away in perfect museum quality condition, broken in somebody's cigar box or sock drawer or slightly worn but functional nonetheless and being carried by someone like me in their pocket.

I think more companies made knives better and with more pride back then and without getting into the offshore issue there are only a handful of US manufacturers compared to 100 years ago when the competition was fierce. Nowadays if a knife is stamped USA anywhere on it our country pride kicks in and we'll buy it because we all know we make only the best.

No I don't think that's knives are better,I think they're better more consistently because of quality control programs but back in the day there was another type of quality control that required no program or supervision. It was called pride in your work, craftsmanship meant something to everyone. Those words are beginning to be heard more frequently these days, the remaining US manufacturers are all competing for our dollars and they're dealing with a more educated consumer these days. Modern technology affords us instant appraisals of current knives and their dependability. Between YouTube and online forums the US makers had to step up their game.

Let's compare today's knives a hundred years from now, I'll bet you'll find there will be more mint prefect condition knives than broken abused knives from the same time frame and you'll find the new 200+ year old knives in the same condition and the garage sales and flea markets will still be selling broken knives from the 20s-70s to people like me and someone will ask the same question again, "are today's knives made any better than the knives of yesteryear?" Of course no, we just take better care of them... I don't care how good a knife is but any knife neglected and abused is due to fail, it's inevitable.








I wish I had the ability to succinctly get my thoughts across like Jack, unfortunately I'm too dang wordy and what Jack can say in two or three sentences takes me a novel to say...

Great post Ted :thumbup: I think mine might have been so brief because I was on my way to bed! I reckon I can ramble on with the best of 'em!

I am reminded of something Jack Black posted about Sheffield cutlery (sorry I can't find it right now.) There was a picture of a company's master cutlers, with a list of their ages and years of employment. It went something like this:

Joe So-and-so
age: 59
years of service: 50

That's more than just a job in our modern way of thought. It was a whole life.

Cutlers like that produced fine quality knives, no argument. I just try not to let nostalgia keep me from considering that, just like today, there may have also been made knives that were not so well made, but got the job done for a cheaper price.

I think that information is from the Joseph Rodgers' book Under Five Sovereigns r8shell :thumbup:

http://www.eggintongroup.co.uk/assets/files/PDFs/Under Five Sovereigns.pdf





That old system just bred quality, I think. When a lad starts learning cuttlin' at his father's knee, grows up with everybody talking about knives and cutlery, then becomes an apprentice where he learns the cuttlin' skills first-hand, either from his father or some other master cutler (with whom he also lives), learning alongside other lads competing for each others respect and that of their elders, and then hopefully becoming a freeman (there was a big drop-out rate) himself, perhaps getting his own mark, but even then working alongside his wheel-mates in a grinding hull. We shouldn't forget the demands of the 'liver and draw' system either, whereby the knives he produced might all be rejected if even one was considered imperfect. The likes of George Wostenholm sitting on a 'throne' striking each blade delivered to him on a small anvil, and if one didn't sound right to his ear, he'd kick the whole box back at the cutler. It was a brutal system, the apprentices, and the men themselves, were exploited ruthlessly, but it certainly led to great QC.

How is someone like Bill Howard supposed to compete with that? He has to take on workers, who aren't even trained cutlers, certainly not steeped in centuries of knife tradition. They expect a decent wage, and fair working conditions too, and the market has changed enormously of course. That companies like GEC can produce knives that are even in the same ballpark as those produced in earlier times is quite remarkable in itself I think.

And there WERE always cheaper knives - Penny Knives are quite collectible in themselves

Thanks, GT. I like coming up with theories. I try not to confuse them with facts, though.

It's a good theory :thumbup:

 

[Jack Black]

I came across this quote from Bernard Levine last night, which I thought fitted in with this thread:

English silver fruit knives are beautiful, glittering, delicate, gem-like, a stark contrast to the conditions under which they were made. Silver finishers, many of them women, were among the lowest paid of Sheffield crafts people. Their starting wage early in this century [the 20th Century] was six shillings per week. The hours were long, the work was filthy, and the workshops were damp, and ill lit. All but the strongest died young of tuberculosis.

Even more unhealthful was the working of mother-of-pearl, because pearl dust is highly toxic. A single exposure can induce fever and tremors. Repeated exposure is inevitably fatal.

The chief reward enjoyed by the people who made these beautiful fruit knives in Sheffield was the satisfaction of a job well done. Most were paid so little that they could never hope to own a single example of their own handiwork

 

[kamagong]

...did they expect the Fit & Finish we do?

I doubt it. Consumers demanded quality, but I'm not quite sure that they placed such a premium on aesthetics, at least not for a working tool like the typical pocketknife. Look at the old barlows in Charlie's thread. Good, solid knives, but not exactly the greatest examples of the cutler's art. People were OK with that, paying for spit and polish on an inexpensive knife like the old barlows would have been considered foolish and wasteful.

Contrast that with today. There are folks that gripe about un-centered blades on a $20 sodbuster. I've seen people complain about the rough, unfinished part on the tang, where the blade contacts the spring. This despite the fact polishing that area is a completely unnecessary step that has no practical benefit, and does nothing but add to the cost of manufacture.

When people expect perfection on a $100 knife, I know that standards are very high indeed. Not excellence, nor even greatness, but perfection. Given that older generations were more reasonable and pragmatic in their outlook I'm certain that they weren't as nitpicky as we are.

That old system just bred quality, I think. When a lad starts learning cuttlin' at his father's knee, grows up with everybody talking about knives and cutlery, then becomes an apprentice where he learns the cuttlin' skills first-hand, either from his father or some other master cutler...

That must be how that Reese guy got so good.

 

[lambertiana]

if anyone has an example of a 60+ year old work knife that is water tight - I would enjoy seeing pictures.

I guess my memory was not as good as I thought, and some on my collection that I thought would qualify do not. Interestingly, the best one I have is this Ulster, which has seen a lot of use:



Here are some examples that are typical of the knives in my collection that, based on the light blade wear, are relatively close to unused (but none are mint). Whether the gaps are original to manufacture or appeared over the intervening years, I cannot say.

Ulster


Globe (probably made by Robeson)


Challenge


HSB OVB (probably made by NYKC)


Southington

 

[knifeswapper]

I guess my memory was not as good as I thought, and some on my collection that I thought would qualify do not.

I think a lot of us suffer from that.

 

[supratentorial]

It would be interesting to see what these high quality modern knives look like after 90 years of use (assuming these modern wonders are used for something besides photography... I'm teasing... a little ) Some of my high quality modern knives have already developed blade wobble and gaps in the springs after sporadic light use for a couple years.

 

[knarfeng]

Slipjoint users in the 1800-1900's: did they expect Fit & Finish we do?

I don't know what somebody in the 1800's expected. I don't know anyone who was alive then. Anything I can say about their expectations would be figments of my imagination.

The closest I can get to that time period is my dad, who was born 100 years ago. To my dad a knife was just a common everyday tool. He did not worry about fit and finish. As long as the knife would perform its intended function he was fine with it.