Small Sebenza : S30V

As far as lockup goes, where the lockbar is in relation to the tang of the blade, I've found that after doing a cleaning and reassembling the knife, that before I tighten down any of the screws, with the blade closed, I grip the scales so that I push the lock bar side towards the pivot, pressing against the solid side, sort of a side shift type thing, and while I'm pressing/pushing hard, I then tighten down the pivot screw and the rest of the screws. As I find that there is a minute amount of play in the screw holes and that little bit of pressing will change the lockup position back towards the outer edge.

I remember a LONG time ago there was talk that the sleeve on the stop pin was not concentric, meaning you could rotate it to a thicker area but that was speculation and turned out to be not the case at all.

G2
 
In your opinion Cliff, is this knife worth $300? As in if you had $300 to spend on a folding knife or knives would you pick the Sebbie over all others?
 
Gary W. Graley said:
As far as lockup goes, where the lockbar is in relation to the tang of the blade, I've found that after doing a cleaning and reassembling the knife, that before I tighten down any of the screws, with the blade closed, I grip the scales so that I push the lock bar side towards the pivot, pressing against the solid side, sort of a side shift type thing, and while I'm pressing/pushing hard, I then tighten down the pivot screw and the rest of the screws. As I find that there is a minute amount of play in the screw holes and that little bit of pressing will change the lockup position back towards the outer edge.

I remember a LONG time ago there was talk that the sleeve on the stop pin was not concentric, meaning you could rotate it to a thicker area but that was speculation and turned out to be not the case at all.

G2
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Gary, that probably explains what happens when you drop a Sebbie. I've dropped mine a couple of times on carpet or concrete and always when I picked it up, the lock engagement was a bit more then normal. Probably the scales shifted a bit due to the minimal amount in play in the screwholes.
Anyway, loosening the screws a bit, wiggling the scales and tightening again fixed it always.
 
Lazarus Long said:
... if you had $300 to spend on a folding knife or knives would you pick the Sebbie
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From a performance based perspective I would not even do that if it was half its current price. Mine works well now, and it is one of my favorite small cutting blades, but I have significantly modified the edge with a Johnson style sharpening :

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y269/CliffStamp/reeve/small%20sebenza/sebenza_modified.jpg

Ground flat to the stone, the resulting edge is ~5.6 degrees per side. However the bevel is too wide now for efficient sharpening, 1/8". It should be hollow ground out again and the blade rehardened. I may get this done yet from Wilson and Krein.

Performance wise, the edge holding isn't superior to production S30V blades costing just a fraction of the price and neither was the NIB cutting ability and ease of sharpening was lower than Spyderco's because of the initial edge angle being too high to hit readily with the Sharpmaker hones.

There are also issues with handle security and ergonomics in extended work and various tasks such as heavy thrusting. It works well and is versatile in low pressure light work though not any better than a similar grip made from Zytel. There are some arguements for the lifetime of Ti vs Zytel, but I would wear down the blade before this would be an issue except on heavy use knives which see a lot of prying/impacting which is not suitable here.

-Cliff
 
Many times over, I would pick it even if they were the same price. In general though you can always improve performance/price by just going lower. Spyderco has some FRN models with high end steels which are very extreme in this regard.

-Cliff
 
I finally got around to the torque tests, because the edge is so thin I could not torque it while cutting in plastics or woods because the primary grind would simply crack so I wedged the blade in a piece of 4x4 and slowly rotated the blade and checked the lock stability.

I could get the lock to disengage readily, the force required was high, more so than cutting cardboard or light vegetation, the blade would need to be wedged solidly as in trying to twist split woods or similar like I did with the Vapor recently. It would be nice if this was quantified like the direct load breaks Spyderco does.

On an interesting note I did the same thing with the Rat Trap. The liner on the Rat Trap would move easier under torques, but the Sebenza's integral liner was more vunerable to direct lateral forces from the fingers so it would more readily disengage under counter clockwise torques, the other way just tightens the lock.

On an interesting side note, the handle slabs on the Sebenza are rounded on the inside, this is fairly rare, most folders leave these sharp. On the Rat Trap they are really square edged, when I did the really hard torques it easily ate into my fingers and peeled the skin back, in use I would never apply enough torque to disengage the lock because it would maul my hand unless I was wearing a glove. Of course I'll break the edges with sandpaper shortly.

The Sebenza bar is also rock solid under spine whacks, I popped it hard enough to dent pine and then hardwood flooring. I tried straight on and angles, the blade didn't give at all. Similar if you apply force directly to the back of the blade there is no movement on the liner, it would likely just break before it would disengage. Overall I'd say it is the most secure liner/integral I have seen to date.

The steel is pretty solid too. I ran it against a bunch of other stainless grades, on some edge retention work which is really influenced by hardness the Sebenza is easily matched by much cheaper knives even the Byrd's can stand right with it. On some work though the higher wear resistance of the Sebenza gives it an advantage when it has similar hardness and thus can stay just as crisp and wear less, I checked alignment under magnification.

In terms of ease of sharpening, initially it was low as the NIB edge was a little obtuse, but once I hacked that off and added a relief grind it works very well. Right now with the current profile I would rate it as one of the easier blades I have to sharpen, the thin hollow grind makes it easy to reset the primary edge grind and the edge responds well to the Sharpmaker medium and fine rods with minimal issues with burr removal.

Corrosion resistance is solid on the blade, I put it and a few other folders and one fixed blade in salt water (ocean), and after a few hours the D2 edge was completely black with oxididation and the S30V ones were uneffected. However the action on the Sebenza was heavily degraded, the washers were all oxidized so I had to repolish them. The Paramilitary was just rinsed and dried.

In regards to cutting ability, NIB, with no mods, the high end Spyderco flat grinds do better on some work due to a more acute edge and overall have an advantage and again in ease of sharpening. However if you are willing to apply a relief grind you can get the Sebenza higher with 5-10 minutes on a x-coarse waterstone. Of course you can custom mod the Calypso Jr. to a similar hollow grind without much trouble (Krein).

On the handle, I like some aspects, it works well in a side pinch grip and is fairly versatile as it doesn't limit any grips, but ergonomics are not high in most and low in some and security is pretty minimal, no guard and the slabs are fairly slick compared to G10. It is about average here, it doesn't stand out as a great handle, but isn't something that bothers me either.

In regards to more work, I'd like to see S30V at 58/59 HRC compared to BG-42 at 64 HRC, S90V at 63 HRC, ZDP-189 at 68 HRC and of course S30V at 62/63 HRC. A range of work both push cutting and slicing on woods, ropes, cardboard and carpet. Some of this I have planned.

If you do have one and have not taken it apart, I would suggest you do so, the details on the piviot are pretty interesting. Are they of practical use - well the lock bar on this one is already 4/5+ in engagement and it isn't even my main EDC, plus I would just wear out the blade before the pivot would go, I have seen this with Spyderco's for example. However they don't hurt and might be of benefit on really heavy folders which could see a lot of strain on the pivot like the Manix or the heavier Striders.

-Cliff
 
Cliff - So to distill your findings, you find the Sebenza a good knife overall, but not quite worth the asking price.

Well, price setting and paying the price are fairly subjective things overall. I have owned the Spyderco Para Military in S30V (I say owned because I gave it to my brother for his 50th), and I own a Benchmade Ritter Grip in S30V, and two Sebenzas (large) in S30V and BG42 respectively. Of them all I prefer the Sebenza in BG42. I like and dislike the Sebenza for all the reasons you list, but in the end I like it best despite the price I paid because it most feels like a fixed blade in my hand, and I prefer fixed blades over folders if the situation gives me the choice.

As an aside, after using several knives in BG42 and S30V, I prefer BG42. It does not tend to chip as much as S30V and it holds an edge about the same. I would have to say BG42 is my favorite stainless overall.

Good work on the Sebenza. It pretty much matches my own experience with the knife. Now if they made a Sebenza with an A2, 5160, L6, or 52100 blade that would be nice.
 
If the washers oxidized in salt water, this confirms what I've believed all along...bronze washers are or should be a thing of the past. Another example of the common wisdom (bronze is better) being incorrect. Kind of interesting since the washer system is supposed to be an area of "technilogical superiority" for the sebenza.
 
brownshoe said:
If the washers oxidized in salt water, this confirms what I've believed all along...bronze washers are or should be a thing of the past. Another example of the common wisdom (bronze is better) being incorrect. Kind of interesting since the washer system is supposed to be an area of "technilogical superiority" for the sebenza.
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wrong, the bushing system in the Sebenza is it's "technilogical superiority". That's the ring around the pivot.

added: any type of washers, as long as they have the correct measurements & thickness will work with the bushing.
 
I've never heard claims that the sebenza is supposed to be corrsion proof. To asert that bronze washers are inferior because they are not corrosion proof is just uh, stupid.
 
DaveH said:
To asert that bronze washers are inferior because they are not corrosion proof is just uh, stupid.
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It is inferior in regards to corrosion, if that is important to you, if you live in a humid enviroment then that could make them directly inferior. One of the advantages of PB is its low coefficient of friction against steel, this is gutted once it is oxidized.

Ted Voorde said:
...as long as they have the correct measurements & thickness will work with the bushing.
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Not really, PB is usually recommended which high tolerances and extreme precision is the goal (sound familiar) because it is much more rigid and less compressible than Teflon or similar.

brownshoe said:
If the washers oxidized ...
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The oxidization was evident as in you could see it, and it made a significant difference in the action, it got really heavy. Some of it came off with a quick cleaning but they really need to be polished again.

Steelhed said:
... I prefer BG42.
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I'd like to see some micrographs of the steel and see which one is finer, CPM's are supposed to be very fine grained but some of the reports seems to indicate otherwise.

The extra hardness is of benefit in many applications directly. I ran a cardboard cutting comparison of the Sebenza vs a small 1095 blade recently which is signicantly harder, cuts made on a pull through 1/8" ridged carboard, a one cm section of blade, knives on a 45 degree angle to the cardboard.

With both blades at a low sharpening angle for maximum cutting ability, not only did the Sebenza go blunt significantly faster the damage was much more extensive. After the cutting I just lightly steeled the 1095 blade and it was shaving again, the edge on the Sebenza had torn/chipped and could not be restored on the steel.

The damage was at the point it was visible and could also not be restored on a fine stone, I spent a couple of minutes to no effect, a coarse abrasive would need to be used. I am somewhat curious how long it would take to degrade the 1095 blade to the same extent.

If I ever get the time to answer that question I'll ask the same one regarding M2.

Now if they made a Sebenza with an A2, 5160, L6, or 52100 blade that would be nice.
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It would be nice in general to see more carbon and tool steel folders.

-Cliff
 
Mr. DaveH., Thanks for saying I'm stupid. However, if you do a search on this forum, you can find some custom knifemakers who assert there are better products that bronze for washers. The grandaddy of tactical knives Terzuola himself posted on these forums as to why he uses another material. If the washer will suffer deterioration that quickly, a few hours of salt water, particularly compared to a Military, then its just example of old technology pulling the sebenza down.
 
Steelhed said:
Cliff - So to distill your findings, you find the Sebenza a good knife overall, but not quite worth the asking price.

I would have to say BG42 is my favorite stainless overall.
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I only have one knife (Buck 110) in BG 42 and have to say that I really like that also.

Steelhed said:
Good work on the Sebenza. It pretty much matches my own experience with the knife. Now if they made a Sebenza with an A2, 5160, L6, or 52100 blade that would be nice.
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Or D2. :D
 
brownshoe said:
If the washer will suffer deterioration that quickly, a few hours of salt water, particularly compared to a Military, then its just example of old technology pulling the sebenza down.
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It seems inconsistent to me in regards to design, while soaking a blade might seem extreme to some it isn't difficult to get acidic food juices in the pivot. I should try some cutting and see how quickly it is effected and how easy it is to clean out without taking the knife apart. I'll have to repolish the washers first.

The main arguement for PB is its rigidity especially in close tolerances and tight fits. Personally I don't tend to mine a little play, and I have never even see it be an issue with folders anyway, nor see piviots degrade to the point where knives have to be retired.

I have old stockman knives where the blades are worn down to nubs, from really heavy and extended use, sharpening and tip repairs, the action is still fine and no excessive blade slop. I can appreciate the details of the bushing, sleeves and so forth, but can't really see an arguement for it being of actual functional benefit.

I like the deep hollow grind though, and the steel sharpens to a high sharpness among the best I have seen, though this is influenced by the thinness of the edge significantly, but even then though, I have a fairly easy time with it - but again I have sharpened it a lot, maybe a hundred times with a few dozen edge recuts.

The blade cant is backwards though, the edge actually angles up from the line of the grip, this reduces cutting power, especially on the draw, I would prefer it to be angled down the same extent it is now pointed up. I'd also probably rather it be a liner than integral lock, which is a statement I didn't think I would make a few years back - live and learn.

-Cliff
 
The Sebenza is much harder to unlock than say the Rat Trap or Military, tends to jam, and will be much more costly to replace once the bar wears all the way over. It is also no more secure under torques than a quality liner, and the raw strength is never an issue anyway.

-Cliff
 
Steelhed said:
Now if they made a Sebenza with an A2, 5160, L6, or 52100 blade that would be nice.
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What would be nice about a Sebenza in 5160 or L6? Great steels with great uses in the cutlery world, but not so sure they're groovy for Sebenza-style knives.

Following those lines, I'd super dig it if Spyderco or Swamp Rat could be convinced to make a lockback in SR-101 or D2 with pivot area hard-chromed or given some other corrosion-resistant coating (and only the pivot area).
 
thombrogan said:
Following those lines, I'd super dig it if Spyderco or Swamp Rat could be convinced to make a lockback in SR-101 or D2 with pivot area hard-chromed or given some other corrosion-resistant coating (and only the pivot area).
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D2 is a decent blade steel, it is pretty odd that people are prefering it to S30V though, based on the composition and specs on paper it should not even be a contest, but some of the performance of S30V has been far from what you would expect.

Optimally I'd like to have Krein regrind this Sebenza to thin out the edge as right now the edge is really wide and have Wilson reharden it as now it falls apart at low edge angles. The more I think about it, the more I currently tend to start gravitating towards knives like this :

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/P347-1.jpg

1095 or better yet M2 blades. I like one handed openers for some use such as with gloves, but for most EDC use I think I'd rather a multi-blade, especially when you consider the ability for multiple blade steels (S90V for foods), and edge configurations.

-Cliff
 
So Cliff, would you recommend the Sebenza as a top end production folder, or an overpriced knife? I love mine, and use it without fear of breaking it, and it has performed flawlessley. I have also owned Benchmades that were very nice too that were half the price, but for some reason I think I can feel the difference in the CRK. I know that the Sebenza isn't for everyone, but can you explain where the cost may come from, other than market trend and demand? Like I said, I own 2. 1 of which is an EDC, and I don't feel ripped off, but I am also very aware of similarly spec'd knives that are cheaper. How do you feel about that? You seem to like the one you are testing.
 
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