Small Sebenza : S30V

[Professor]

I've been using the snot out of my small Seb since February of '02, and I would offer alternative findings to a few of your testing measures, based on 3+ year edc. And please don't get me wrong, I am not a fanatic, and was quite skeptical of the Seb's long-term wear potential vs. the Axis locks I was previously enamored with (talking lock mech-wear here).

I've snorkeled during several vacations in the Cayman islands with it, and did not have the op to wash it with fresh water or disassemble it and clean it thoroughly for that matter. Yes, I have encountered slight, and I mean slight oxidation on the blade, but nothing that some Flitz couldn't fix. When in the Caymans, I had to resort to WD40 from a little hardware store that worked like a champ. However, never have I had oxidation occur with the PB washers. Discolorment maybe, but never any oxidation or otherwise breakdown so far as I can tell.

The other thing is that you mentioned the lock bar wearing out. It simply does not happen as much as you would think with these knives. The angle of the blade tang/lock face are actually designed to minimize wear. My lock nestles in at 75%, but honestly has not traveled further than that since I've been toting it. I notice that if anything, the 303 stainless stop pin sleeve tends to get marred from the imact of the blade tang smacking it, but I simply rotate the sleeve when I clean it. Even the marring of the pin has not correlated to discernable lock bar travel.

I for one think you oughtta tote the small Seb for a duration and see if it changes your notion regarding lock wear. The other thing is, maybe the uncomfortable frame of the folder will toughen up your whimpy hands a little at the same time!

Seriously, I was a skeptic for a long time about this knife. Even bought one and sold it. Then I tried another, and I've been hooked since.

Just my .02. Thanks for your review!

Professor.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Discolorment maybe ...

That is oxidization, do you lubricate the pivot?

[lock wear]

It simply does not happen as much as you would think with these knives.

It is not hypothetical, I have watched it move rapidly across the face in just a few months. I'll see how it handles continued carry.

...would you recommend the Sebenza

That would depend on what you were looking for in a knife.

...but can you explain where the cost may come from

He can sell them there, why, ask the people who buy them.

I am also very aware of similarly spec'd knives that are cheaper. How do you feel about that?

That is the reason why I feel it is difficult to claim the "best" rating for the Sebenza from a performance point of view as a cutting tool.

You seem to like the one you are testing.

Yeah, but a Krein reground ZDP-189 Calypso Jr. would cut better for longer, be easier to sharpen, easier to open and have a more secure lock and better grip and handle security. All for a fraction of the price.

-Cliff

 

[Professor]

After you've debunked the Sebenza myth, please see if you have time to work on Bigfoot!

Thanks, Cliff.



Professor.

 

[db]

A reground Calypso? What needs to be reground on it?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

What needs to be reground on it?

The primary grind needs to be hollowed to allow it to exceed the cutting ability, edge lifetime and ease of sharpening of the small Sebena I carry.

-Cliff

 

[Shann]

Yeah, but a Krein reground ZDP-189 Calypso Jr. would cut better for longer, be easier to sharpen, easier to open and have a more secure lock and better grip and handle security. All for a fraction of the price.

-Cliff[/QUOTE]


A Krein reground ZDP-189 Calypso, Jr. Ouch, I cut myself just thinking about it.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I like flat ground blades for medium use knives, and they can cut well like convex grinds, but if you want to see the ultimate in cutting ability and ease of sharpness you need to see a deep hollow grind such as done by Krein. His normal ones are fairly deep, he will go even thinner on request. My small Sebenza is twice as deep as the normal spec'ed ones. Krein's reground U2 is even deeper still.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff - I thought you disliked hollow grinds in general because they tend to bind on deeper cuts compared to convex and flat grinds. Also, hollow grinds tend to "wander" more on slices and lack strength behind the edge compared to other grinds. Are you now seeing greater application for hollow grinds in general?

 

[db]

Steelh I think Cliff has always liked a semi hollow grind. I had thought he prefered a hollow grind on top of a convex grind. However, sometimes I think he prefers a full flat grind. I think it depends on the knife. Cliff you have any more info on Krein and this U2 knife. I'm very interested as i really like thin grinds and they are very hard to find on stock factory knives. I've thinned a few myself but I've done it free hand on a stone so they are shallow convex grinds now. makes a big difference in how well they cut.

 

[ccdog]

Yeah, but a Krein reground ZDP-189 Calypso Jr. would cut better for longer,

ok

be easier to sharpen,

ok

easier to open

ok

and have a more secure lock

Huh? I know I'm no expert, and I'm not super up to speed on the Spyderco products (liner lock with some type of glass scales?) but I have a hard time coming to grips with the idea that a plastic knife with a wimpy looking pin and a liner lock is better than a slab of titanium and a decent pivot.

and better grip and handle security.

Comparing my Mini-RSK to my small Sebbie, I do feel that the Mini-RSK feels better in the hand and is more secure, but if the chips were down I'd much prefer the Sebbie. Perhaps it isn't true, but the glass handles just don't feel like they put up with significant twisting. I can just imagine twisting it and having the handle pop apart.

(And I could imagine the liner of a liner lock seperating from the handle and folding over under serious abuse)

I'm not sure how wide the handle of the Calypso Jr. is, but another benefit from the size and shape of the Sebbie is that it is VERY comfortable clipped inside front pant pockets. This knife was born to ride.

All for a fraction of the price.

Sure, it seems like the Calypso Jr ZDP-189 is a great knife for the price, but from my perspective all the money is in the blade material (the Mini-RSK seems to have a better blance of quality parts and design IMO). The rest of the knife looks unremarkable to me (again, disclaimers of ignorance apply) and I really don't see how you arrive at the conclusion the total knife is as good as or better than Sebenza.

Is it worth the additional $200? Obviously that depends on your budget and what you want from a knife. If you primarily concerned with cutting and not overall robustness, the Calypso probably would win.

But from my perspective, the Sebbie is a much more robust knife. And that is importaint to me. Yes, you could chip the blade using it as a prybar due to it's blade design. But OTOH, the spine is still thick and the pivot and lock are very sturdy and I think it would do pretty good if that was all you had, missing hunks of edge be dammed.

You make a lot of great observations, but I have a hard time following your math when you add them up.

Now, if I could purchase a Mini-RSK with solid titanium handles (no liner would be needed) and a ZDP-189 blade, I'd retire the Sebbie in a FLASH! You hear that Doug?!

Thanks for the review Cliff.

-john


Edit: Oh, and you missed the most annoying feature of the Sebbie... It is a ROYAL pain to close one handed with the weak hand (and not fun to open either unless you waited eons to get ahold of a dual thumbstud). Not an ambi friendly knife (The Mini-RSK with ambi-Axis and thumbstuds on the other hand is an ambi dream) by any stretch, even if you got a dual thumbstud version.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...I have a hard time coming to grips with the idea that a plastic knife with a wimpy looking pin and a liner lock is better than a slab of titanium and a decent pivot.

It is a lock back, which makes it more secure, the Sebenza I would assume has a higher break point under vertical loads, but that isn't of great practical advantage here, and doesn't well represent vertical impacts either.

I always thought FRN was a weakness until I watched my brother crack an Endura blade and the scales were fine, it wasn't trivial to do either. Much is made about the strength of G10, but the strength of the blade itself has to be considered, where will it break when stressed.

On the really thick knives you may be able to make an arguement for G10 or Ti, but for a 1/8" deep hollow ground knife, the blade will go long before the scales, similar for the pivot. All of the hype about the rugged nature of the Sebenza overlooks the fairly fragile blade.

I can just imagine twisting it and having the handle pop apart.

Ask Ritter if you can, he is on line, and then try it and see. You can easily test all these assumptions. He promotes it for work which Reeve will not for the Sebenza, so it has a wider scope of work, not less.

And I could imagine the liner of a liner lock seperating from the handle and folding over under serious abuse

They just unlock under torques and impacts, same as integrals, it is actually really difficult/impossible to actually break one.

Not an ambi friendly knife ...

One of the advantages to holes, especially when you use heavy gloves.

...info on Krein and this U2 knife.

Awhile back I became interested in hollow grinding a U2 for a few reasons, so I asked on the shop talk forum if a maker could work to some specs.

Most thought it was impossible, the others thought it was of no use, however Krein understood why and made it happen :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347072

He also makes such knives directly out of very thin D2 stock, which is a nice steel for that grind and type of blade.

You really need to experience at least one knife of this style, it is a limit benchmark in many respects.

Cliff - I thought you disliked hollow grinds in general because they tend to bind on deeper cuts compared to convex and flat grinds.

Yes, I would not want them on heavy choppers and brush blades in general for this, it can be so bad they need to be chopped out themselves, plus they are problematic on inclusions as you can fracture the primary grind.

Also, hollow grinds tend to "wander" more on slices ...

I am not sure if this is the t-bar nature of some grinds or a lack of symmetry. My small sebenza pulls to the side on thick cardboard but I have other hollows which do not.

......lack strength behind the edge compared to other grinds.

Yes, but on the knives I would use them this isn't an issue, they are not impact or prying knives, or used to cold chisel cut thick metals. For that type of work I would want a flat/convex grind.

Are you now seeing greater application for hollow grinds in general?

In general as you learn your viewpoint changes, one would hope that asked the same question each year on your birthday your answer is different. If it isn't, they you are just as ignorant as you were last year, my goal is to learn so I have a dynamic viewpoint.

I wasn't impressed with hollow grinds for a long time (years) because all of those I had seen tended to cut poorly and be fragile, thus were a combination of the worst aspects of knives. This was because they were usually short and shallow on thick stock.

So you end up with something like the Strider WB or TOP's Steel Eagle. The cross section is too thick to cut well, but if you bang the edge into something it can blow the primary grind. This turned me off from them for a long time.

Dozier grinds are different, thinner stock, thinner edge and deeper grind. His edges are way too obtuse for optimal cutting, but when you blast them way down you get a hint of the true nature of the grind. Then you cut the primary profile in half and the light hits true.

Or you just ask Alvin and he tells you and you wonder why you didn't just listen to him in the first place a dozen years ago. Sometimes though you have to actually walk a path to understand the nature of the trail.

-Cliff

 

[db]

Cliff said...
"You really need to experience at least one knife of this style, it is a limit benchmark in many respects.
"
You are probably correct. I just wonder if the difference is noticable, on these hollow grinds, or cost is worth the difference from say a very thin convex or flat grind witch a person can do themselves fairly easy.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You need to push really hard on the steel, a deep hollow grind can be ~0.015" thick at 1/4" back from the edge, you can't come close to this with a flat or convex grind.

Take a blade 1/2" wide out of 1/16" stock and full flat grind it, at 1/4" from the edge is it ~0.030" thick, twice as thick. We are not talking about small differences, but actual multiples.

Deep hollow grinds also allow sharpening at really low edge angles, 3-5 degrees per side, to do this with flat or convex bevels require you to sharpen the entire profile.

The sharpening efficiently is *MUCH* greater for the deep hollow grinds. Due to the massive difference in steel which as to be removed.

If you compare a Dozier or Sebenza to an Opinel you will not see much of an advantage to the hollow grind, however those knives are not the true limits of the grind whereas the Opinel is for the flat.

If you compare optimal to optimal it is different.

-Cliff

 

[Blue Man]

Yeah, but a Krein reground ZDP-189 Calypso Jr. would cut better for longer, be easier to sharpen, easier to open and have a more secure lock and better grip and handle security. All for a fraction of the price.

-Cliff

Not to mention the Calypso Jr. weighs 54 grams (measured on my accruate scale), while the Sebenza weighs 85 grams (Reeve's web site). That's 36% less. Another win for the Calypso Jr. in my mind.

(Perhaps after being reground the Calypso Jr. loses another gram or two? Anyone have a reground one they can weigh?)

 

[Firebat]

Old thread, just stumbled across it while searching for something else.

Great read, amazing tests, specs, and conclusions.

Something that wasn't considered much:

Personal taste. There's no accounting for it. Yet I'd estimate it plays a much, much, much larger factor in 90% of the average Bladeforums-reading knife purchaser's purchases than any of the test data does.

I like the Sebenza. I like the Calypso Jr. I didn't like the Paramilitary. How did I arrive at those conclusions? I simply purchased them and tried them out.

The Sebenza is smooth, solid, and I appreciate the design and intent behind it. Therefore, it appeals to me. Worth the price to me anyway, good, bad or otherwise.

The Calypso Jr. in ZDP is a neat special edition of a perennial favorite. Plus, the burgundy handles are a nice change. I like the idea of a "clad" blade, too.

Paramilitary? Not for me. The clip placement/design is horrible, and the compression lock is- IMHO- one of Spyderco's dark moments. I find it awkward. I've owned four compression lock models and all exhibited lateral play, which I don't find acceptable. Plus, those film washers lend the grittiest feel to the action that I find completely unappealing.

But that's me. I appreciate the detailed testing, obviously a lot of work went into it, but it's not particularly useful when I can tell you within five minutes whether I'm going to like a knife or not.

Guess I'm not a 'power user'. Oh well.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Personal taste. There's no accounting for it. Yet I'd estimate it plays a much, much, much larger factor in 90% of the average Bladeforums-reading knife purchaser's purchases than any of the test data does.

Very likely, many of the posts have people passing on knives simply because they don't like the color. The reviews are just an extention of work I do to allow an understanding of performance and thus they reflect that viewpoint.

I've owned four compression lock models and all exhibited lateral play ...

Initially of over time, did you have any of them checked by Spyderco, what was the extent of the blade, how much movement?

-Cliff

 

[powernoodle]

Personal taste. There's no accounting for it. Yet I'd estimate it plays a much, much, much larger factor in 90% of the average Bladeforums-reading knife purchaser's purchases than any of the test data does.

I certainly fall into that catagory. I don't have the experience (nor frankly the patience) to discern the difference between grinds and their effect on cutting efficacy. I'm an urban lawyer-type guy who has never gutted a wild boar nor survived in the wilderness using only my wits and a small folder. My EDCs are used to open boxes and letters, cut twist ties, and so forth. So ergonomics, size, price, appearance and so forth are the determinative factors with me. I appreciate a solid folder with a buttery open, like a mini manix for example.

As I noted in another thread, I just purchased then returned a small Sebenza. Opening the dang thing was like trying to stick a cat into a greasy ziplock bag with one hand. That, alone, was enough for me not to like the knife, especially at $330.

That being said, I'm enjoying this thread and appreciate the knowledge that has gone into it.

best regards

 

[Firebat]

You know I gotta be honest, I did not have them checked out, so shame on me for not letting Sal and crew correct them if there was correction to make. Point taken.

And it was over a span of time, so I kind of forgot why I sold off the one before each time I got a new one. But by the fourth, I was seeing a pattern I didn't like. The Paramilitary was the last example. Actually, there was very little side to side blade little play (on the Para specifically)when locked up, but the action was really gritty feeling to me. The clip I just couldn't get my mind around and accept. Again, personal taste. I don't have any quantative information on the amount of play, sorry.

Another example is the two Lil Temperance trailing points I had. Man, I loved that design. Still do. Sure, I'd realistically never use it for much more than opening packages and cutting up boxes, but it tripped my personal trigger something fierce. Unfortunately, netiher of the examples I had felt smooth and both had considerable and what I'd call "sloppy" blade play. To define that a bit, I mean lock it open, grasp the handle in one hand and the spine near the tip in the other. Then rock the blade side to side and see if there's play. In addition to more than a little bit of side to side play, they both had up and down play.

That model used a sort of eccentric pivot that some users reported could be adjusted to compensate for play...I never was able to make that happen. It was just varying degrees of wiggle in any direction.

You're probably right that a little play is nothing to fret over, but I don't like it at all.

And don't get me wrong, I certianly appreciate the work and thought you put into the testing, it's good stuff and I enjoy reading it. I was just pontificating mostly.

As to the little Seb being "worth" the three plus bills? To me, it is. But admittedly, that's purely on emotion, not any sort of 'real' use. And I'm cool with that, because I do believe there's something beyond cutting ability to it, and confident enough in it based on reputation that it will handle the odd "big" task should the need arise.

Yet your testing and subsequent data supports your assesment very well, and I can respect that point of view.

I wanted to like the compression lock Spydercos, I really did. I just haven't had one that I thought all that highly of. I prefer their lockbacks.

 

[Architect]

Even if you can't pronounce it, the Mnandi is really the knife to look at. It has almost the same blade length as the Small Sebenza but it is elegant, comfortable, fairly easy to open and easier on the thumb. It is a better slicer and has more control (and would have even more cutting control if the tip did not have a trailing point). The clip is infinitely better than those on the Sebbies. Take a look.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

[para]

The clip I just couldn't get my mind around and accept.

I don't like the clip on the para either, the Endura v4 is much more ergonomic (shape and edges are rounded) plus can be swapped side to side and tip up/down. The attachment is also more elegant though it would be nice to see it recessed like the Sebenza.

[play]

You're probably right that a little play is nothing to fret over, but I don't like it at all.

It takes a lot before I can notice it in use, I have a Vapor which I damaged the lock under heavy load, you can hold the handle and just flick the wrist up and down and hear the blade actually clack back and forth, still cuts fine.

I used Olfa knives for years though in construction and they have heavy play, they give when you cut with them. Everyone makes their own decisions with this and other elements of course, what is important and what isn't.

-Cliff