Small Sebenza : S30V

[MVF]

Cliff, I don't mean to stray off topic, but the RSK Grips have already been mentioned a few times and S30V is a big part of this review.

What I'm wondering is that Ritter offers this knife as his idea of an ultimate survival folder. From what I've seen here, S30V is brittle and hard to sharpen- these don't seem like the traits I would want in a knife if I was stuck out in the boonies depending on it. Am I missing something?

This knife has a very long list of happy users elsewhere on the forum, so I assume it is a good knife, but am wondering if it has been mislabeled.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

S30v's big advantage is wear resistance, it is something you can appreciate when cutting a lot of abrasive materils, but for general wood work it doesn't stand out strongly. I would look towards the new M2 versions for better toughness and overall performance, though that isn't an ideal steel for that type of use, A2 would be better, it is still far better than S30V.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

I'm just not seeing all that much brittleness in my S30V knives. I have several by different manufacturers and custom makers, both folders and fixed blades ranging in blade size from 2 inches to 8 inches and I have yet to see a chip in the edge much less a broken point. In fact I use a Bill Siegle custom as my main carry fishing knife. The blade is 7 inches and it sees alot of use carving up Alaska salmon and halibut. I have seen no difference in blade performance between it and an almost identical knife by Siegle in 5160, except of course the S30V blade hasn't shown even the slightest rust or tarnish.

Maybe this says alot about 5160's edge holding ability or maybe something about S30V's toughness. I'm not sure.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm just not seeing all that much brittleness in my S30V knives.

On paper it should have no problems in this regard compared to other similar stainless steels, however it does, I have seen it and there have been pictures posted on the forum, and results of hardness checks. Some blades have been as low as 55 HRC which is problematic as this hardness for that steel is likely either going to come from a low soak, slow quench, or very high temper.

All of these can cause problems for performance in different ways, the first leaves very large carbides undissolved, the second and third can cause them to precipitate along grain boundries which can cause the toughness to bottom out. It is hard to say what it will do in S30V as Crucible doesn't have the materials data (I asked), but in other steels this can reduce the toughness by as much as 70%.

[S30v]

I have seen no difference in blade performance between it and an almost identical knife by Siegle in 5160, except of course the S30V blade hasn't shown even the slightest rust or tarnish.

I don't think that Crucible would be pleased with a comparison of S30V which had its performance similar to 5160 in a fillet knife, it is generally promoted for *much* higher levels of edge retention. Unless you meant just toughness, but consider Wilson made a lot of fillet blades out of S90V which is a really brittle steel yet I watched one take apart cod after cod on a warf full of professional fishermen. The edge was undamaged, but these were all guys who did this from the time they were in elementary school. It is hard to judge off of such comparisons unless you have a benchmark, what knives for example had you had problems with doing the same work in regards to chipping.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff - These are not fillet knives per se. They are rather thick tanto style blades (Japanese tanto, not the American version). Cutting through the backbone of heavy king salmon (50 plus pounds) or filleting a 200 plus pound halibut is not the same as filleting cod. Heading these fish requires fairly heavy pressure through the backbone against a cutting board. Thin fillet knives often snap during this exercise. You mostly fillet halibut without heading, but removing the cheeks and skin requires a knife that does not easily bend.

Frankly, I don't care about Crucible's feelings regarding edge retention. I only care about what works in my hands, and in my experience a Paul Bos heat treated S30V blade performs just fine, and the edge retention is not all that different than my 5160 blades heat treated to about the same hardness. Now I know the 5160 blades are tougher, but so far I have not fractured an S30V blade during normal cutting activities so performance wise for me I have no complaints.

Others may have had problems with S30V, and poor heat treatment or other factors may be the culprit, but so far mine have worked well. But so have my BG-42 blades. The only blades I have had chip and fracture on me are ATS-34 blades and some cheap mystery steel knives.

I have two large Sebenzas, one in S30V and one in BG-42. I like the BG-42 a hair better because I can get it a little sharper, but overall the difference between the two is negligible. My experience with them does not duplicate yours with the small Sebenza, but then I have not tried to sharpen mine to a higher degree than the factory edge. While we are back on the subject of Sebenzas, I would like to add that I use mine daily and I have not seen the lock bar travel on mine. In fact I have had the BG-42 version for 5 years and it locks up as tight today as the day I bought it. That's just my experience.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cutting through the backbone of heavy king salmon (50 plus pounds) or filleting a 200 plus pound halibut is not the same as filleting cod.

You cut the heads off cod when they are filleted because people eat the heads, you just do this with the heaviest section of the blade near the base before the blade starts the distal taper. Most cod are now much smaller though, around 10 lbs, the largest I have seen recently would not go more than 15-20 lbs, they used to get up to 30 lbs, but that was long ago. Salmon are fairly rare here and almost never filleted, the ones caught in traps occasionally were prized and usually baked. Wilson's S90V knives are used on more fish than cod though, he sells lots of them to fisherman, he actually started with fillet knives if I remember correctly. He has a really nice one on his website now :

http://www.seamountknifeworks.com/I...let knives with etched blades by Francine.jpg

Frankly, I don't care about Crucible's feelings regarding edge retention.

Not meant in that way, 5160 would be on the low end of edge retention for cutting in general, it would be like saying something had the corrosion resistance of L6.

The only blades I have had chip and fracture on me are ATS-34 blades ...

From who? Any comments from the maker/manufacturer?

As for what other people "may" have experienced, if you want people to respect your perspective, it is hardly conductive to denegrate theirs. Do you really think people are faking the pictures, lying about the results and making up HRC tests.

I have not personally seen the same levels of problems that others have discussed in the S30V blades I have used, however this doesn't mean it is made up, there are lots of reasons why people see different performance in the same steel.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff - The "may" was not used to imply anyone was fabricating anything - just others may have had problems and I have not. You've been battling your naysayers too long. You are reading too much into my post.

As for respect, I give as I get and I've had no problems in that regard. The ATS-34 blades I've had the most problems with were Benchmades. I don't raise much of a ruckus though, I just don't buy their ATS-34 blades anymore.

Yeah, I know what you mean about 5160, but I haven't really noticed that much difference in the edge retention of 5160 and the super steels. I guess I just don't use mine hard enough to see the difference. That, and I am a compulsive sharpener so maybe I just keep all my knives sharp, even when maybe they don't need it.

 

[Artfully Martial]

S30V has held up fine for me, no chipping.

AUS steels on the other hand seem to chip and roll more easily. Never heard of that before, but I have two knives, an AUS6 and AUS8 that exhibit it.

I'm really pleased with S30V.

 

[CAD]

My S30V blades are holding up just fine :thumbup: My preference would be BG-42.


Chris

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The ATS-34 blades I've had the most problems with were Benchmades.

Many had the same, interestingly enough, Paul Bos also tempers hot at a similar hardness, and most people will promote those ATS-34 blades as very tough. Is it a QC issue, geometry or just perception based on promotion.

I haven't really noticed that much difference in the edge retention of 5160 and the super steels. I guess I just don't use mine hard enough to see the difference.

It doesn't take much depend on the material, cardboard will show a difference in minutes, if you shallow cut the edge angle you notice it immediately. On some cutting though there is little difference as it can be hardness dependent and almost everything is ~60 HRC. Some things are really demanding, shark skin is supposed to be really bad, locally though these are caught maybe once every few years and people see them as pests and not a food source.

That, and I am a compulsive sharpener so maybe I just keep all my knives sharp, even when maybe they don't need it.

Mainly to me, edge retention has moved towards a side effect of getting a knife which gets very sharp, cuts very well over a broad range of materials and sharpens very easily.

AUS steels on the other hand seem to chip and roll more easily. Never heard of that before ...

The rolling is a known problem of AUS steels, Hilton Yam was the first I saw note it on the forums, this was back in the late ninties. He did cutting trials (martial not utility) and found the edge rolled really quickly.

If however you are getting brittle failure in AUS-6/8 series, chipping with no plastic deformation, the edge just cracks in very sharp lines, that is unexpected. You should be able to for example stick these blades in a piece of wood and bend them into a crooked knife.

As with any edge problems, the first thing to do is grind it all off, check the edge under magnification and see if it forms smoothly. In particular you are watching to see if the edge responds to the higher grit or just stays coarse.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff - Those are some nice fillet knives by Wilson! Just my personal preference, but I don't like long, tapered, thin blades on my fishing knives. Others up here certainly do. I like fairly stiff blades long enough to extend beyond the belly and back of a salmon as I follow along the backbone after heading the fish. Seven inches of blade is usually enough, although the larger king salmon requires two cuts along the backbone on either side compared to one on sockeye and silvers. I also like to steak out my kings, which requires numerous cuts through the backbone from just behind the gills down toward the tail. A thicker blade works better for me in this regard. So far the best knife I've used is the Bill Siegle tanto with cord wrapped handle. He soaks the cord in two ton epoxy before he wraps the tang. This makes a handle so grippy that it won't slip even when covered in fish slime and blood. The one I have in S30V just needs a hosing off after the work is done and it is ready for the next fishing trip. The one in 5160 takes some time to clean and then it must be doused in WD40 to keep it from rusting up. Even so, it works great too.

The other thing I like about these knives and others like them compared to the thin fillet knives is that they are handy for general purposes around the cabin or camp, while the long fillet knives are pretty use specific.

We do have cod in Alaska waters too. Mostly black cod, but also true cod. A big one is about 10 pounds. A fillet knife like Wilson's would work great on these fish.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I like fairly stiff blades ...

Locally many fisherman use similar blades, often they are just worn down chef's knives, usually 1/8-3/16", no taper and about half an inch wide. But I have seen everything used, lots of folders, Buck 110 rip offs, opinels, actual fillet knives are rare because no one is going to spend the money when you can just use something you find in the kitchen drawer.

I also like to steak out my kings, which requires numerous cuts through the backbone from just behind the gills down toward the tail.

I do the same with cod, but all of these are small, usually 5-10 lbs maximum and I work inbetween the bone segments unless I am doing an evaluation. I like a nice pan fry in pork rind with a batter made from egg yolks, quality mustard, melted butter, some spices, and a decent hot sauce dipped in a nice sourdough crumb.

This makes a handle so grippy that it won't slip even when covered in fish slime and blood.

Yes, Wilson's grips are fairly smooth, but he runs tapers, flares the end and has a decent guard, though if I was commercially cleaning a lot I would likely get the grip checkered for speed.

The other thing I like about these knives and others like them compared to the thin fillet knives is that they are handy for general purposes around the cabin or camp, while the long fillet knives are pretty use specific.

The lack of ridigity can be an issue, the point in particular are really flexible, if for example you tried to just press them into a phone book (not stab), the knife won't penetrate very far before it will just bend.

-Cliff

 

[Artfully Martial]

The AUS6 Urban Shark is the one with the chips...it has two or three...I don't have it on me right now...they're very small, but visible with the naked eye. That knife has seen it all, so they don't bother me too much, just that I have to remove all that steel.

The rolling on the AUS8 however really surprised me. I mean, the M16 has seen medium duty cutting stuff, and it's cheap enough that I don't baby it, but I just don't remember doing anything particularly notable with it.

But I have no idea how my cheaper knives are used when I'm away from my apartment, to be fair. I just leave them out...I used to leave them all out, but for fear of n00bs cutting off their fingers with my balis or cringing at the thought of someone trying to cut aluminum cans in half for fun...man...the things "normal" people do with knives....brutal....

 

[samhain73]

I have seen the chipping of S30V, on a Skirmish. And some on an LCC, and a Native. the native's edge came right back, but that Skirmish was :thumbdn:
Another one I had was fine though. And the LCC sharpened right out too.

 

[Steelhed]

Cliff - Sounds like a good recipe. I think I'll give it a try. I usually barbecue my salmon or slow smoke it with alder wood. I like fried halibut better than anything, except for my Halibut Imperial, which is a whole different thing.

Yeah, most of the commercial fisherman up here use Fiskars or Moras, cheap stainless knives they can drop overboard and never think about it. For the most part they work just fine, but being a knifeknut I like customs or "premium" knives just because I supposedly know better. Funny thing is when I let my friends use my knives they suddenly want one of their own. So I guess its catching.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have seen the chipping of S30V, on a Skirmish. And some on an LCC, and a Native. the native's edge came right back, but that Skirmish was :thumbdn: Another one I had was fine though. And the LCC sharpened right out too.

In general there are very few tradespeople who would have a favorable opinon of a material or brand which had that high a problem rate, and this isn't a rare report on the forums and seems to have hit across brands and geometries. It is fairly interesting and though people are getting replacements there seems to be little feedback on what caused them.

But I have no idea how my cheaper knives are used when I'm away from my apartment, to be fair. I just leave them out...

This is one of the primary reasons why more expensive knives are often percieved as tougher.

-Cliff

 

[bbcmat]

Can the majority of the cutting benefits achieved with just pulling the primary cutting angle back to 13 to 15 degrees?

I have a large Sebenza and a new Edgepro and would like to improve the factory's "initial sharpness" feel - plan to work just the edge back to 13 degrees then progress through to the 3000 grit polish tape. (assuming I can work the burr off at this angle). I'm hoping this will still give a good deal of performance improvement without taking away from the stonewashed look of the blade.

My knife will lead a mostly EDC couch potato existance - except for being open/closed alot and cutting up light cardboard on recycling days - envelopes, trimming errant fingernails etc (real he-man stuff) - most of my satisfaction comes from a spooky "glide" through petty cutting jobs - the factory axe edge lacks that (for me anyways).

Am I on the right track? Is 13 degrees with no back-grind a good idea for a couch-potato S30V blade? I just don't have the guts (yet) to grind a 10 degree relief into a brand new blade with such a nice finish.


THx

MAT

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You will note a huge increase if you cut back from 20 to 13 degrees, cutting ability for a lot of things is proportional to edge angle so 20 to 13 makes much more of a difference than 13 to 10. You will also notice a huge increase in resharpening time if you do a 13/15 microbevel as opposed to just sharpening at 20 each time.

-Cliff

 

[bbcmat]

Thanks for the advise Cliff - what (think) I'll do is run my 13 degree until I just get some edge/burr - then step up the grits to achieve the polish (low friction) - THEN finish up with the 15 degree and coarse stone - then work up the finish on that edge to remove the burr/reduce the friction.

Is there a point of deminishing return on the finish of the final edge? You see my usage patterns - am I being a nut using more than 600 grit with this blade material? On other knives (non S30V) usually finished up with a red DMT diamond hone before getting this Edgepro - used the fine green hone for a final lick on knives that only I use. I only stropped (Lee Valley Tool green stuff and their wood/leather strop) my 425MOD Buck blades.


Thanks for the help - I like your test it / measure style and am grateful for access to it. For me through - I'd carve up another passenger for food before opening a can with any of my knives - LOL!!

MAT

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Is there a point of deminishing return on the finish of the final edge?

As you start adjusting edge angles down, the need for a coarse edge falls away dramatically, once you get down to 3-5 degrees per side you can slice even hard shelled ropes with a CrO level mirror polish because essentially you can push cut everything anyway so a draw is near effortless. At this point ease of sharpening goes up dramatically as well because you are always using very fine hones and removing very little material.

What you can do is leave the first half inch or so of the blade at a lower grit finish, this is the dual-edge profile first described by Joe Talmadge. This gives you the ability to start tough to cut material, as generally this is the hardest part of the slice and you still have a lot of blade for precision push cutting work. After awhile if you find that you are using much more of one finish than the other you can just leave the whole edge one way or the other.

-Cliff