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Very well said Paul. :thumbup:
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Snobbery & does "Handmade" belong
- Thread starter Keith Montgomery
- Start date
Very well said Paul. :thumbup:
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This thread has gone in directions I never would have predicted. Silly me.
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It seems that Threads that do not allow for unexpected deviations
usually end and fade away quite quickly.
People are more and more searching for opinionated excitement....
All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
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- May 13, 2005
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- 407
That is an interesting point!!!
The rest of the post was well said too.
Regards
/Magnus
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- Oct 8, 2006
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Ive read through this threat with great interest, even though Custom & Hand Made Knives is not a subforum I have heretofore explored. A lot of this thread seems to involve semantics, discussing difference and similarities in the categories of Custom and Hand Made.
I dont know this neck of the woods. I have no dog is this fight. For me as a novice, a custom knife implies that it has been customizedaltered from a standard pattern to fit the desires of a particular customer. For years Ive understood Handmade Knife to mean Made without exclusive dependence on jigs and dies. Its a definition which predates CNC controlled water jet cutting of blades, but it still helps to clarify my thought on the issue.
The problem with relating Custom to Handmade is that a custom knife ought to be different from the knife makers regular line of knives. But a handmade knife may be one of an identical series, with nothing differentiating one handmade blade from another. The problem with the subforum name is that such definitions do not fit the range of knives discussed within Custom & Hand Made Knives. Which is why Im quite sure my simple definitions will be attacked from all sides as soon as I post them.
May I respectfully suggest that this age-old discussion may be aided by the addition of an middle category? With your indulgence I will discuss the categorical word I have in mind, before applying it to the subject of knives. The word is bespoke. What does bespoke mean? Ill let the Oxford English Dictionary tell the tale.
BESPOKE, ppl. a. BESPOKEN ppl. a. 2; spec. of goods; ordered to be made, as distinguished from READY-MADE; also said of a tradesman who makes goods to order. Also n., a bespoke article.
1755 MRS. C. CHARKE Life 203 At length the bespoke Play was to be enacted. 1866 Chambers's Encycl. VIII. 691/1 The shoemaking trade..is divided into two departments the bespoke and the ready-made or sale business. 1884 Birmingh. Daily Post 24 Jan. 3/3 Boot Trade. Wanted..Saleswoman, accustomed to Bespoke Trade. 1907 W. DE MORGAN Alice-for-Short xlvii, His boots may have been bespokes for anybody, except himself. 1908 Daily Chron. 13 June 4/7 A bespoke tailor. 1928 Punch 30 May p. xv (Advt.), Lotus Bespoke Model Shoes. 1965 Ibid. 29 Sept. 478/1 A Special Collection which is, in harsh reality, a collection of bargain bespokes. 1966 Economist 16 July 239/2 Although there is a lot of bespoke work in this [steel] plant, management would prefer some element of payment by results.
In practice you might go to Savile Row (famous for bespoke tailoring) and order a suit. You choose the fabric (herringbone or silk), you choose double breasted or single breasted, you choose the style. They take your measurements and, eventually, make a suit intended for you and only you.
It is not a custom suit in that you cant order a five piece suit instead of a three piece suit. They wont make you a suit with caplets or bell bottom pants. They are in the business of making gentlemans suits, not Halloween costumes. Nevertheless what you get is a suit tailored for you, and made at your order. Which is to say, a bespoke suit.
If I apply this to knives, I think of knife makers who offer options; handles of stag, wood, micarta, or G-10. Guards of brass or German Silver. Blades of one pattern but various lengths. Sheaths of leather or kydex or nylon. You make your choices, you place your order, and eventually you receive your knife. Your bespoke knife, with just the options you ordered.
I would suggest that the category Bespoke fits such a knife better than calling it a Custom knife. After all, you havent asked the maker to turn a drop point into a clip point or a Bowie into a Golok. The knife in question may or may not be a Handmade knife. That depends on production methods rather than how the knife was ordered.
Renaming this subforum Custom, Bespoke, & Hand Made Knives may help sort through the issues discussed on this thread. Or at least provoke some interesting discussion.
I dont know this neck of the woods. I have no dog is this fight. For me as a novice, a custom knife implies that it has been customizedaltered from a standard pattern to fit the desires of a particular customer. For years Ive understood Handmade Knife to mean Made without exclusive dependence on jigs and dies. Its a definition which predates CNC controlled water jet cutting of blades, but it still helps to clarify my thought on the issue.
The problem with relating Custom to Handmade is that a custom knife ought to be different from the knife makers regular line of knives. But a handmade knife may be one of an identical series, with nothing differentiating one handmade blade from another. The problem with the subforum name is that such definitions do not fit the range of knives discussed within Custom & Hand Made Knives. Which is why Im quite sure my simple definitions will be attacked from all sides as soon as I post them.
May I respectfully suggest that this age-old discussion may be aided by the addition of an middle category? With your indulgence I will discuss the categorical word I have in mind, before applying it to the subject of knives. The word is bespoke. What does bespoke mean? Ill let the Oxford English Dictionary tell the tale.
BESPOKE, ppl. a. BESPOKEN ppl. a. 2; spec. of goods; ordered to be made, as distinguished from READY-MADE; also said of a tradesman who makes goods to order. Also n., a bespoke article.
1755 MRS. C. CHARKE Life 203 At length the bespoke Play was to be enacted. 1866 Chambers's Encycl. VIII. 691/1 The shoemaking trade..is divided into two departments the bespoke and the ready-made or sale business. 1884 Birmingh. Daily Post 24 Jan. 3/3 Boot Trade. Wanted..Saleswoman, accustomed to Bespoke Trade. 1907 W. DE MORGAN Alice-for-Short xlvii, His boots may have been bespokes for anybody, except himself. 1908 Daily Chron. 13 June 4/7 A bespoke tailor. 1928 Punch 30 May p. xv (Advt.), Lotus Bespoke Model Shoes. 1965 Ibid. 29 Sept. 478/1 A Special Collection which is, in harsh reality, a collection of bargain bespokes. 1966 Economist 16 July 239/2 Although there is a lot of bespoke work in this [steel] plant, management would prefer some element of payment by results.
In practice you might go to Savile Row (famous for bespoke tailoring) and order a suit. You choose the fabric (herringbone or silk), you choose double breasted or single breasted, you choose the style. They take your measurements and, eventually, make a suit intended for you and only you.
It is not a custom suit in that you cant order a five piece suit instead of a three piece suit. They wont make you a suit with caplets or bell bottom pants. They are in the business of making gentlemans suits, not Halloween costumes. Nevertheless what you get is a suit tailored for you, and made at your order. Which is to say, a bespoke suit.
If I apply this to knives, I think of knife makers who offer options; handles of stag, wood, micarta, or G-10. Guards of brass or German Silver. Blades of one pattern but various lengths. Sheaths of leather or kydex or nylon. You make your choices, you place your order, and eventually you receive your knife. Your bespoke knife, with just the options you ordered.
I would suggest that the category Bespoke fits such a knife better than calling it a Custom knife. After all, you havent asked the maker to turn a drop point into a clip point or a Bowie into a Golok. The knife in question may or may not be a Handmade knife. That depends on production methods rather than how the knife was ordered.
Renaming this subforum Custom, Bespoke, & Hand Made Knives may help sort through the issues discussed on this thread. Or at least provoke some interesting discussion.
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I'm sure you're sick of this but this reminds me of the "silly season" argument we have on my umpire's listserve where I'm a moderator. We're all college and higher umpires and when the season is over, we get in the biggest knockdown dragouts and people threating to drive and whip someone's ass over rules that 90% of umpires don't know. Then baseball cranks back up and we're all good again. This is a silly season argument, I'd hazard that most of us have some stresses in our lives and sometimes you just let it creep into these internet chats.
Well I'm going to go back to dressing pigs now.
Well I'm going to go back to dressing pigs now.
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- Feb 28, 2002
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- 13,348
Good point. I will never undertstand why some people feel that having a preference for one thing makes you a snob in respect of other things. I think it must be because they carry a massive chip on their shoulder that makes them believe that if your interests don't match with theirs, you must be "against" them somehow. I like strawberry ice cream. That makes me a snob against vanilla in the eyes of some. But it's all ice cream, it's all good.
Roger
Per
"Brownshoe, you seem to collect what you like in a price range that is comfortable for you. I collect something different. Now according to you....which, if either of us is a snob?"
Neither of us is a snob if we collect what we like and don't denegrate other's choices.
Sorry if there was some confusion, I like all kinds of knives in all price ranges. What I found when I started collecting was some, not a lot, of snobbery among both collectors and makers. My examples were not my personal opinions, just those of people at knife shows, these forums and in Blade/Knife World articles. I like and own forged blades, tacticals, pocket fixed blades, used customs, etc. I appreciate all knives and can understand that many things trip the trigger of a knife collector. Just don't put down my selections.
I have great respect for all types of knives. I don't have respect for intelligent collectors or makers who make claims based on snobbery. "Brass has no class" is the best example.
I admire pefect fit and finish, but this is an area where snobbery can be seen also. Just because perfect fit/finish is one knifemaker's or collector's goal, doesn't mean it has to be another's. On this forum people have said that if an MS smith sells something that isn't perfect, this dilutes the "brand" of the MS stamp. Others on this forum have said the ABS should "police" its members and weed out some of the older ones who "might not even pass today's more stringent tests." Not me, that's BS in my book.
However, some makers, MS included, make users at a fair price. Blade might not be centered, but it stays where it is. How many here bought a perfectly centered beutiful knife to have the fit fall apart in 6 months because of the underlying construction? I have. The maker was not a MS or a Guild member. But I also have bought slightly less than perfect knives from a MS, my giraffe bone folder with the uncentered blade but perfect grind, that keep their fit and don't chip even when dropped tip down on concrete and after 2 years hard use. However, my best kitchen knife was made by an amish farmer out of saw blade steel, local wood and copper harness rivets. Keeps an edge for a year w/o touch-up and my family abuses it.
What I like is good looking, ugly, non-functional, functional knives, with a perfect fit and finish, but a few flaws for character. Don't you
"Brownshoe, you seem to collect what you like in a price range that is comfortable for you. I collect something different. Now according to you....which, if either of us is a snob?"
Neither of us is a snob if we collect what we like and don't denegrate other's choices.
Sorry if there was some confusion, I like all kinds of knives in all price ranges. What I found when I started collecting was some, not a lot, of snobbery among both collectors and makers. My examples were not my personal opinions, just those of people at knife shows, these forums and in Blade/Knife World articles. I like and own forged blades, tacticals, pocket fixed blades, used customs, etc. I appreciate all knives and can understand that many things trip the trigger of a knife collector. Just don't put down my selections.
I have great respect for all types of knives. I don't have respect for intelligent collectors or makers who make claims based on snobbery. "Brass has no class" is the best example.
I admire pefect fit and finish, but this is an area where snobbery can be seen also. Just because perfect fit/finish is one knifemaker's or collector's goal, doesn't mean it has to be another's. On this forum people have said that if an MS smith sells something that isn't perfect, this dilutes the "brand" of the MS stamp. Others on this forum have said the ABS should "police" its members and weed out some of the older ones who "might not even pass today's more stringent tests." Not me, that's BS in my book.
However, some makers, MS included, make users at a fair price. Blade might not be centered, but it stays where it is. How many here bought a perfectly centered beutiful knife to have the fit fall apart in 6 months because of the underlying construction? I have. The maker was not a MS or a Guild member. But I also have bought slightly less than perfect knives from a MS, my giraffe bone folder with the uncentered blade but perfect grind, that keep their fit and don't chip even when dropped tip down on concrete and after 2 years hard use. However, my best kitchen knife was made by an amish farmer out of saw blade steel, local wood and copper harness rivets. Keeps an edge for a year w/o touch-up and my family abuses it.
What I like is good looking, ugly, non-functional, functional knives, with a perfect fit and finish, but a few flaws for character. Don't you
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You too, eh?