Snobbery & does "Handmade" belong

Jose Reyes said:
This is a good thread with clear intent but I think there needs to be a definition of terms in order to get a clear reply. In my mind if a knife is created as a one of a kind item , or close to it, it should qualify. I don't have anything against using cnc machining or other types of modern technology but if the piece is a pretty much an exact copy of many others in the same style then it would seem to stray from the concept of cutom, even if the buyer had a choice of options. Knives completely made by hand, but by many pair, would seem more difficult to classify. If it's an assembly line type of manufacture churning out a specific model I don't think it should fit in. I'm sure there's still room for debate but even if the "handmade" part of the title is removed there would still be examples of "customer defined spec" knives posted. I still believe we need to trust in the moderators to determine what should be moved or not. Thanks for the thread, Keith...:thumbup:
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What if they are one of kind not because you intend them to be, but because you can't get them exactly alike now matter how hard you try?:D
 
brownshoe said:
When it comes to snobbery, it does not apply to a subforum, but to individuals. A snob, is

1. One who overtly imitates, obsequiously admires, and offensively seeks to associate only with those one regards as one's superiors and who tends to rebuff or ignore altogether those one regards as one's inferiors: "A snob is someone who judges all things, from shoes and dinner parties to love and beauty, according to their social rating" (Tom Wolfe).


2. One who affects an offensive air of self-satisfied superiority in matters of taste or intellect.

I believe that both behaviours are occasionally seen in this subforum. Some people exhibit it all the time. Two examples are the phrase "brass has no class" or "giraffe bone is just a poor substitution for more expensive materials." We all know that some people like brass, and some giraffe bone is just to wild too be remotely like anything else.

IMHO, the recent pillorying of RL for posting a picture of a strider is an excellent example of mass snobery interacting to create a cesspool.

There has always been a little bit of snobbery in the hand forged vs. stock removal debate with the stock removal guys receiving the short end.

The pure fact that people need to have this forum validate their purchases fits right into "A snob is someone who judges all things, from shoes and dinner parties to love and beauty, according to their social rating". What I love is when the person posts how much this knife is the be all and end all of their collector's search, then everyone chimes in agreement like a Greek chorus, but the blade's up for sale less than two months later. Did they buy the knife because it truly is the gem of their collection, or just for the approval of the forum cliche?
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deserves to be said again.
 
2knife said:
deserves to be said again.
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Now that was well said! And sadly, all too common here.

I would like very much to have joined the CKCA. But I am having a very hard time getting the track record of many of the founders out of my mind. The primes of the organization, while originally being formed, came straight from the above. I see that this has changed, but I can't help but wonder how and why. It was so strong, and such a part of the original plan.

I can only hope that this has truly changed. If it has, I may very well join,
If not, I can not, and will not be a part of such snobbery. Especially from buyers. To be snobbish about what you may be able to create is one thing. (Although there is still is no excuse).But to be snobbish about what you can afford and or buy is a mark of a rank armature in the collecting world What many call new money. Always looking for a way to impress the other new money, while hoping and praying to impress the old money.

To me personally, it is the mark of low breeding. I am very glad the makers themselves with very few exceptions do not treat each other the way many of the newer collectors treat each other. Much less the makers some of the collectors do not deem worthy.
 
Michael Lovett said:
Now that was well said! And sadly, all too common here.

I would like very much to have joined the CKCA. But I am having a very hard time getting the track record of many of the founders out of my mind. The primes of the organization, while originally being formed, came straight from the above. I see that this has changed, but I can't help but wonder how and why. It was so strong, and such a part of the original plan.

I can only hope that this has truly changed. If it has, I may very well join,
If not, I can not, and will not be a part of such snobbery. Especially from buyers. To be snobbish about what you may be able to create is one thing. (Although there is still is no excuse).But to be snobbish about what you can afford and or buy is a mark of a rank armature in the collecting world What many call new money. Always looking for a way to impress the other new money, while hoping and praying to impress the old money.

To me personally, it is the mark of low breeding. I am very glad the makers themselves with very few exceptions do not treat each other the way many of the newer collectors treat each other. Much less the makers some of the collectors do not deem worthy.
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Would you care to provide specific examples of this pervasive snobbery in the CKCA that you are generalizing about? And how about some clarification on this "low breeding" concept you are advancing? It would be great if you could be real specific on that one.

Roger
 
I don't see any problem with the Handmade in the sub forum name here,
and have seen very little snobbery.

Also, there are a few posts here that make little sense.....

But the two that stand out and make the least sense are....

hlee's comments about the ABS. I really do not understand your point !!!
Many ABS members do both, forge and stock removal.

Mike's comment about the CKCA. You lost me there, Mike, care to elaborate?
 
Michael Lovett said:
Now that was well said! And sadly, all too common here.

I would like very much to have joined the CKCA. But I am having a very hard time getting the track record of many of the founders out of my mind. The primes of the organization, while originally being formed, came straight from the above. I see that this has changed, but I can't help but wonder how and why. It was so strong, and such a part of the original plan.

I can only hope that this has truly changed. If it has, I may very well join,
If not, I can not, and will not be a part of such snobbery. Especially from buyers. To be snobbish about what you may be able to create is one thing. (Although there is still is no excuse).But to be snobbish about what you can afford and or buy is a mark of a rank armature in the collecting world What many call new money. Always looking for a way to impress the other new money, while hoping and praying to impress the old money.

To me personally, it is the mark of low breeding. I am very glad the makers themselves with very few exceptions do not treat each other the way many of the newer collectors treat each other. Much less the makers some of the collectors do not deem worthy.
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Pretty snobbish remark on your part Mike. :confused:
I as others, would like for you to explain or elaborate on your comments regarding the CKCA.
 
When I first became a bit active on Blade Forums, I suppose I felt there was something of a prejudice toward forged vs stock removal methods. And it would be easy for someone like me, who is principally a stock removal collector, to feel that the perceived prejudice toward forging was a form of snobbery.

However, the longer I have been active here, the more I see a simple preference rather than prejudice. I think it takes someone with an open mind to understand the difference and take people for what they are, not for what a closed mind decides they are.

It was with this realization that I joined the CKCA early on, as a guy who collected stock removal makers rather than forgers. And I find the guys in the association without prejudice. We all have our preferences and that's the way the world works. And we all have knives we are proud of, and love to show to others, without a hint of snobbery.

Perception is reality, and in my view (my perception), there is much less snobbery here than what I first perceived. I am proud to be a member of the CKCA and find such comments as Mike Lovett's rather close minded and narrow.
 
Kevin Jones said:
By the way Mike, three of your knives are included in the 2009 CKCA calendar.
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They even included two of my knives in the calender.

Mike, please think about joining the CKCA. There's a good group of members, that have a wide variaty of intrest, stock removal and forged knives.

Take Care
Charles
 
Michael Lovett said:
I would like very much to have joined the CKCA. But I am having a very hard time getting the track record of many of the founders out of my mind. The primes of the organization, while originally being formed, came straight from the above.
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The CKCA WAS founded with a certain snobbery in mind…that is why people who post there have to use their real names.

We wanted to create an environment that would be welcoming to knifemakers and collectors…we wanted to keep flame wars to a minimum, to be worthwhile for people to participate in, both within the community, and on the internets. We wanted to make something that could grow, that had the potential to outlive us, and get bigger….but not become a monster. The first of its kind, by collectors, for collectors, first and foremost.

The dues are not cheap, and we ask that members contribute in any way that they are able…there is a pre-condition of trust and respect.

Yes, it may be snobby and arrogant….to some….to others, it is the right idea, the right club, and the right people at the right time.

We have accomplished so much, in so little time, with so little resource(on the surface) other than our members. We have created an organization, a website, a calendar, and an identity in less than a year, with a growing membership. We gave back, immediately with membership badges, cards, t-shirts and hats, depending upon membership level….and we are just getting started....with money in the bank!

To those that can only see the bad….I get real snobby….don’t join us.

BUT….if you can see the big picture and want to be part of a vital team that works with some of the best in the community and industry to increase positive visibility of custom knives….check us out.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
All anyone needs to do, in order to see the complete diversity in collecting of CKCA members, is to sign on to the CKCA forum and read the posts. You will find everything there - stock removal, forged, tactical, folders, fixed blades, comtemporary, traditional, vintage, etc.

Perhaps some inspection, detection and reflection should precede the objection.
 
Michael Lovett said:
Now that was well said! And sadly, all too common here.

I would like very much to have joined the CKCA. But I am having a very hard time getting the track record of many of the founders out of my mind. The primes of the organization, while originally being formed, came straight from the above. I see that this has changed, but I can't help but wonder how and why. It was so strong, and such a part of the original plan.

I can only hope that this has truly changed. If it has, I may very well join,
If not, I can not, and will not be a part of such snobbery. Especially from buyers. To be snobbish about what you may be able to create is one thing. (Although there is still is no excuse).But to be snobbish about what you can afford and or buy is a mark of a rank armature in the collecting world What many call new money. Always looking for a way to impress the other new money, while hoping and praying to impress the old money.

To me personally, it is the mark of low breeding. I am very glad the makers themselves with very few exceptions do not treat each other the way many of the newer collectors treat each other. Much less the makers some of the collectors do not deem worthy.
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UTTER NONSENSE!

i am sure that your contributions would be very much appreciated. heck, i am even offering you a free one year ckca membership. just pm or e-mail me if you are interested.

best regards,
hans
 
Originally Posted by Michael Lovett
Now that was well said! And sadly, all too common here.

I would like very much to have joined the CKCA. But I am having a very hard time getting the track record of many of the founders out of my mind. The primes of the organization, while originally being formed, came straight from the above. I see that this has changed, but I can't help but wonder how and why. It was so strong, and such a part of the original plan.

I can only hope that this has truly changed. If it has, I may very well join,
If not, I can not, and will not be a part of such snobbery. Especially from buyers. To be snobbish about what you may be able to create is one thing. (Although there is still is no excuse).But to be snobbish about what you can afford and or buy is a mark of a rank armature in the collecting world What many call new money. Always looking for a way to impress the other new money, while hoping and praying to impress the old money.

To me personally, it is the mark of low breeding. I am very glad the makers themselves with very few exceptions do not treat each other the way many of the newer collectors treat each other. Much less the makers some of the collectors do not deem worthy.
UTTER NONSENSE!

i am sure that your contributions would be very much appreciated. heck, i am even offering you a free one year ckca membership. just pm or e-mail me if you are interested.

best regards,
hans
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Hans,

I agree 100%.

Mr. Lovett,

You are right that the CKCA started in a discussion at Jerry Fisk's Microshow between Steve Shackleford and collectors who were in attendence. These collectors do like forged blades, but that doesn't mean that they don't also collect stock removal knives. One who attended has the initials P.K. He is collecting a set of your knives that has gotten you much publicity on Bladeforums.com and other forums.

I am one of the founders of the CKCA. Who the hell are you to question my track record or any of the other founders. I own many knives both forged and stock removal, among them is a Loveless fighter.

From the very beginning we knew that the CKCA would have no chance of being sucessful, if it was limited to just forged, or stock removal or folders etc. We have attracted members who collect whatever they want.

As far as low breeding, you seem to speak from personal experience. I for one would never own a knife from a maker who speaks out of his ass.

Jim Treacy
 
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