Snobbery & does "Handmade" belong

I think a microshow is by definition snobbery.

What is a microshow but premium makers, "HOT" new makers with premium prices, catering to the rich elite.

For one microshow, the organizer listed as their goal that only "serious" collectors were desired. What is a "serious" collector? How do I become one so I can go? If I was very knowledgeable, been collecting customs for 20 years (<$400 a piece) but with only $500 to spend, would I be serious enough to be allowed to enter the hallowed ground? Could I afford the food?

Think about custom handmade knife collecting as compared to other things. There is snobbery in all collecting. For some, thats what makes it fun. I might be a pud, but I've got a Delaware Maid Loveless.

There is snobbery in all high dollar luxury goods. How is a Fisk, Loveless, Onion, etc. any different from a designer dress, pair of custom shoes, custom car, pedigreed dog etc. Basically a microshow is the same marketing ploy as a fashion show at a house of couture.

I proudly own a custom giraffe bone knife with mokeme bolsters handmade by a two person forge. But according to some of the savants of the internet, mokeme is old hat, giraffe bone is faux mastodon ivory, and only sole authorship is worth buying, unless its engraving.

I proudly own a custom folder (orange died giraffe bone) that has 440C and visible flaws (OMYGOSH the blade is not perfectly centered), but its an EDC, the design works, the filework is original and its perfectly flat ground to a zero bevel by a mastersmith. It cost 200. However according to the savants of the internet, the mastersmith who made it cheapens the MS stamp because he doesn't supply a perfect work of art. The man makes neat working blades that I am proud to own.
 
Thank You Hans, we'll see.

jjtjr. No, it started much earlier than the Micro show. I'm sure that RP can fill you in on that. I took Roger to task back then on the snobbery, and prejudice being leveled on the Stock removal makers. It got a bit ugly. As to the talking out of the A** comment you have made here in the forum, thank you for a prime example of low breeding.

Roger, I don't know why you bother asking. You do remember your comments, and what the organization was to be about. Who was to be allowed to belong, and who was to be excluded do you not? You were the main character in this movement if I remember correctly.

Now that you are trying your hand at making knives your self. Perhaps you are learning a bit about the challenges of fit and finish. The feel in the hand. The flow. What I have seen so far, looks good indeed.

I would like to see more new makers to learn fit and finish first and for most before using Damascus, engraving, file art, added texturing, and other tricks. They are each and every one an art form in and of them selves. And can be beautiful. They can be and are used often to cover poor workmanship of the piece at hand. I am still amazed at how few buyers can not see past the bling, to see the knife and how well or poorly it is make before being embellished.

I remember sitting at a restaurant once while in a meeting. There was a young man present who was doing every thing he could to get older Gentlemen in attendance to notice his watch. It was a very cheap brand, with many imitation diamonds on the dial and bezel. Man, he was very proud of his new watch. He must have had nearly 200. tied up in it. The fellow sitting directly across from him had a very plain looking automatic wrist watch on. No stones. No bling at all. The younger fellow was ragging him about his cheap looking watch. How could a successful business man such as himself be seen in such a cheap watch. The older fellow just smiled and told him it was a gift from his wife that they picked up while on vacation.

I knew the young man, and after the meeting he came over to my table and had a seat. I told him that I had over heard the conversation and ask him had he ever seen a Platinum Day Date from Rolex before. He said no. What is it. Well it's the watch so and so picked up while on vacation in Switzerland. It cost more than your parents house. He was shocked. Both at the price, that someone could or would pay that much for a simple watch. Most mostly that it was so plain. He understood nothing about fine watches. Fit and finish. The watch makers art. Quality. Long term value. What he did understand was what is called Bling these days. A lot of flash for a little cash.
This is the difference between new money, trying to impress, and old money understanding value and worth.
This is a definitive difference in Breeding

All the glitz in the world will never replace quality workmanship to those that understand the difference. For those who do not, they will never understand the difference.

Fine Knives, Fine Guns, Fine Watches or fine Automobiles. It makes no difference. They fit in the same niche. Few will ever own any of them. Fewer still will ever know the difference. Simply owning something because it is expensive, or to impress ones peers is no different.

To me it makes no difference whether a knife was whacked with a hammer, mashed on a press, or ground on a wheel. What I want to see is the QUALITY of Workmanship in the piece being presented.

This is where I had and difference with Roger and a few others when they were originally toying with the idea of what became the CKCA. Thankfully it over came the very short sided vision as originally presented for discussion here on the forums. (The very thing that has just about killed the Guild.)
I wish this new organization well! And appreciate all the effort that has gone into its creation. But for it to succeed, the elitist must understand that there is more than one opinion, and more than love, when it comes to any Art Form. There must be Visionaries. And the understanding of many disciplines. Not simply very narrowly focused one. It must be allowed to grow and flourish. It would appear that this is indeed taking place. I'm gratified to see it. We all need such an organization. Makers and collectors alike.

M. Lovett
 
Michael Lovett said:
I took Roger to task back then on the snobbery, and prejudice being leveled on the Stock removal makers. It got a bit ugly. As to the talking out of the A** comment you have made here in the forum, thank you for a prime example of low breeding.

Roger, I don't know why you bother asking. You do remember your comments, and what the organization was to be about. Who was to be allowed to belong, and who was to be excluded do you not? You were the main character in this movement if I remember correctly.
Click to expand...

Your memory is as faulty as your logic. I asked you then to provide any specific examples from the thousands of posts on record here of my exhibiting prejudice toward stock removal makers. Then, as now, you have chosen to take the cowards way out and hide behind wild generalizations unsupported by facts. The reason I asked is that I hoped you might have exhibited some improvement in this regard. Clearly, I was mistaken. It is pretty easy to sit at your keyboard and type "Roger is prejudiced against stock removal makers!" - or "The CKCA is full of snobs!". It's a little harder to actually prove your point. Mike - put up, or shut the hell up. You are embarrasing yourself.

Roger
 
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jjtjr. No, it started much earlier than the Micro show. I'm sure that RP can fill you in on that. I took Roger to task back then on the snobbery, and prejudice being leveled on the Stock removal makers. It got a bit ugly. As to the talking out of the A** comment you have made here in the forum, thank you for a prime example of low breeding.
Click to expand...

Mr. Lovett,

I have seen from your posts on this and other forums that you are a person who thinks that he knows everything, not always a sign of intelligence.

I probably should not have used the talking out your a** comment, but I have found that when talking to people of low breeding, it is best to keep it simple so that you could understand it.

Jim Treacy
 
So you will not admit the things you said. Your utter rudness. But I'm the coward.

Shut the hell up you say. Once again the breeding shows.

I never said the CKCA was full of snobs. But I do maintain that several that first wanted to start an orginization were exactly that. You in particular were very rude and snobish to stock removal makers. You know it. I know it.

As far as being a coward. I am more than sure that we will both be attending a show somewhere some time in the future under tha same roof. I would like to ask this politley this one time, and one time only. Do not stick your finger in my face and call me a coward. Not to my face. No Sir! Do us both a favor, and Don't do It!
.
 
jjtjr said:
Mr. Lovett,

I have seen from your posts on this and other forums that you are a person who thinks that he knows everything, not always a sign of intelligence.

I probably should not have used the talking out your a** comment, but I have found that when talking to people of low breeding, it is best to keep it simple so that you could understand it.

Jim Treacy
Click to expand...

Smooth, very Smooth! Got a mirror?
 
Michael Lovett said:
So you will not admit the things you said. Your utter rudness. But I'm the coward.

Shut the hell up you say. Once again the breeding shows.

I never said the CKCA was full of snobs. But I do maintain that several that first wanted to start an orginization were exactly that. You in particular were very rude and snobish to stock removal makers. You know it. I know it.

As far as being a coward. I am more than sure that we will both be attending a show somewhere some time in the future under tha same roof. I would like to ask this politley this one time, and one time only. Do not stick your finger in my face and call me a coward. Not to my face. No Sir! Do us both a favor, and Don't do It!
.
Click to expand...

Mike - you are the one making accusations - prove them or shut up. You say that I have exhibited prejudice toward stock removal makers? Fine. You have several thousand posts to choose from. Find one.

And please get the hell off your high horse and keep your asinine threats to yourself. I didn't call you a coward. I said that making accusations and not backing them up with facts was a cowardly course of action. I stand by that characterization. It's entirely up to you - then, as now - whether you choose that course of action or not.

Roger
 
Michael Lovett said:
Thank You Hans, we'll see.

jjtjr. No, it started much earlier than the Micro show. I'm sure that RP can fill you in on that. I took Roger to task back then on the snobbery, and prejudice being leveled on the Stock removal makers. It got a bit ugly. As to the talking out of the A** comment you have made here in the forum, thank you for a prime example of low breeding.

Roger, I don't know why you bother asking. You do remember your comments, and what the organization was to be about. Who was to be allowed to belong, and who was to be excluded do you not? You were the main character in this movement if I remember correctly.

Now that you are trying your hand at making knives your self. Perhaps you are learning a bit about the challenges of fit and finish. The feel in the hand. The flow. What I have seen so far, looks good indeed.

I would like to see more new makers to learn fit and finish first and for most before using Damascus, engraving, file art, added texturing, and other tricks. They are each and every one an art form in and of them selves. And can be beautiful. They can be and are used often to cover poor workmanship of the piece at hand. I am still amazed at how few buyers can not see past the bling, to see the knife and how well or poorly it is make before being embellished.

I remember sitting at a restaurant once while in a meeting. There was a young man present who was doing every thing he could to get older Gentlemen in attendance to notice his watch. It was a very cheap brand, with many imitation diamonds on the dial and bezel. Man, he was very proud of his new watch. He must have had nearly 200. tied up in it. The fellow sitting directly across from him had a very plain looking automatic wrist watch on. No stones. No bling at all. The younger fellow was ragging him about his cheap looking watch. How could a successful business man such as himself be seen in such a cheap watch. The older fellow just smiled and told him it was a gift from his wife that they picked up while on vacation.

I knew the young man, and after the meeting he came over to my table and had a seat. I told him that I had over heard the conversation and ask him had he ever seen a Platinum Day Date from Rolex before. He said no. What is it. Well it's the watch so and so picked up while on vacation in Switzerland. It cost more than your parents house. He was shocked. Both at the price, that someone could or would pay that much for a simple watch. Most mostly that it was so plain. He understood nothing about fine watches. Fit and finish. The watch makers art. Quality. Long term value. What he did understand was what is called Bling these days. A lot of flash for a little cash.
This is the difference between new money, trying to impress, and old money understanding value and worth.
This is a definitive difference in Breeding

All the glitz in the world will never replace quality workmanship to those that understand the difference. For those who do not, they will never understand the difference.

Fine Knives, Fine Guns, Fine Watches or fine Automobiles. It makes no difference. They fit in the same niche. Few will ever own any of them. Fewer still will ever know the difference. Simply owning something because it is expensive, or to impress ones peers is no different.

To me it makes no difference whether a knife was whacked with a hammer, mashed on a press, or ground on a wheel. What I want to see is the QUALITY of Workmanship in the piece being presented.

This is where I had and difference with Roger and a few others when they were originally toying with the idea of what became the CKCA. Thankfully it over came the very short sided vision as originally presented for discussion here on the forums. (The very thing that has just about killed the Guild.)
I wish this new organization well! And appreciate all the effort that has gone into its creation. But for it to succeed, the elitist must understand that there is more than one opinion, and more than love, when it comes to any Art Form. There must be Visionaries. And the understanding of many disciplines. Not simply very narrowly focused one. It must be allowed to grow and flourish. It would appear that this is indeed taking place. I'm gratified to see it. We all need such an organization. Makers and collectors alike.

M. Lovett
Click to expand...
Mike, in the United States, the pretty much isn't any such thing as old money unless your ancestor was Lord Baltimore and even he had to leave England to seek his fortune. Only money that it slightly less new. Asors, Rockefellers, Morgans, etc all started off as pirates for lack of a better term. You can buy your way into anything. Henry Kravis proved that. He didn't even have to wait the obligatory 3 generations like the English had to do to become a "gentleman" He just built a new symphony hall in West Palm Beach and presto, he was a part of Palm Beach society.:D Sam Walton, on the other hand, never bought "bling" My recollection is that Warren Buffett is somewhat "bling averse" "Breeding" can be a behavior learned as an adult. Our next President is living proof of that.
As for the CKCA, check out who the two knifemakers are who have turtorials posted on the website. One is a Master Smith..........a FEMALE master smith....and the other is a famous practioner of the very same Loveless inspired stock removal form that you practice. Some of he guys who came up with this idea may be heavily into collecting and/or making ABS style bowies, but I think that any idea that the membership of the organization was going to be a tiny cabal of Fisk and Hancock collectors was ill founded. Hell...........they let me join:D
 
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Michael, I got a lot of value out of your post, but I will take this story with me, probably for the rest of my life. It is so well told, and really strikes a chord in me, not because I'm into bling, but for the opposite reason. Your post was a rallying cry for quality, and that's the team I've always been on.

Michael Lovett said:
I remember sitting at a restaurant once while in a meeting. There was a young man present who was doing every thing he could to get older Gentlemen in attendance to notice his watch. It was a very cheap brand, with many imitation diamonds on the dial and bezel. Man, he was very proud of his new watch. He must have had nearly 200. tied up in it. The fellow sitting directly across from him had a very plain looking automatic wrist watch on. No stones. No bling at all. The younger fellow was ragging him about his cheap looking watch. How could a successful business man such as himself be seen in such a cheap watch. The older fellow just smiled and told him it was a gift from his wife that they picked up while on vacation.

I knew the young man, and after the meeting he came over to my table and had a seat. I told him that I had over heard the conversation and ask him had he ever seen a Platinum Day Date from Rolex before. He said no. What is it. Well it's the watch so and so picked up while on vacation in Switzerland. It cost more than your parents house. He was shocked. Both at the price, that someone could or would pay that much for a simple watch. Most mostly that it was so plain. He understood nothing about fine watches. Fit and finish. The watch makers art. Quality. Long term value. What he did understand was what is called Bling these days. A lot of flash for a little cash.
This is the difference between new money, trying to impress, and old money understanding value and worth.M. Lovett
Click to expand...

Fortunately, there is room for both the high bred and the low bred to intermingle here on Bladeforum. If the CKCA allows for this diversity also, then I'm all for it. It's only through contact with others who differ, that one can see the mirror well enough to see one's self. So far as I see, that is.:)
 
Remember also that it is usually the "low bred" that MAKE most of the "fine" items.:D And even the ones who now work in places like Saville Row, Jermyn Street or 5th Avenue didn't start out there.
 
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A. G. Russell said:
I wonder how many will admit to buying one or more of the Bose/Case colaborations?
Click to expand...

I'm not a frequent poster in this sub forum but I do have 3 of the Case/Bose collaboration knives. :)

If nothing else, this thread is a sure indicator of just how passionate the knife lovers that frequent this sub forum are!
 
Kohai999 said:
The CKCA WAS founded with a certain snobbery in mind&#8230;that is why people who post there have to use their real names.

We wanted to create an environment that would be welcoming to knifemakers and collectors&#8230;we wanted to keep flame wars to a minimum, to be worthwhile for people to participate in, both within the community, and on the internets. We wanted to make something that could grow, that had the potential to outlive us, and get bigger&#8230;.but not become a monster. The first of its kind, by collectors, for collectors, first and foremost.

The dues are not cheap, and we ask that members contribute in any way that they are able&#8230;there is a pre-condition of trust and respect.

Yes, it may be snobby and arrogant&#8230;.to some&#8230;.to others, it is the right idea, the right club, and the right people at the right time.

We have accomplished so much, in so little time, with so little resource(on the surface) other than our members. We have created an organization, a website, a calendar, and an identity in less than a year, with a growing membership. We gave back, immediately with membership badges, cards, t-shirts and hats, depending upon membership level&#8230;.and we are just getting started....with money in the bank!

To those that can only see the bad&#8230;.I get real snobby&#8230;.don&#8217;t join us.

BUT&#8230;.if you can see the big picture and want to be part of a vital team that works with some of the best in the community and industry to increase positive visibility of custom knives&#8230;.check us out.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...


Thanks STeven for your post as you pretty much communicated my thoughts as well.
To STeven's point, the knives below demonstrate the diversity in knife styles CKCA members enjoy and discuss on our site:

Here's a piece that Wolf Loerchner shared. A very early Canadian copper blade. Found in northern Ontario.
Reverse.jpg


This beautiful piece needs no introduction.
P1010001.jpg
 
Michael Lovett said:
jjtjr. No, it started much earlier than the Micro show. I'm sure that RP can fill you in on that. I took Roger to task back then on the snobbery, and prejudice being leveled on the Stock removal makers. It got a bit ugly. As to the talking out of the A** comment you have made here in the forum, thank you for a prime example of low breeding.
...........
This is where I had and difference with Roger and a few others when they were originally toying with the idea of what became the CKCA. Thankfully it over came the very short sided vision as originally presented for discussion here on the forums. (The very thing that has just about killed the Guild.)
I wish this new organization well! And appreciate all the effort that has gone into its creation. But for it to succeed, the elitist must understand that there is more than one opinion, and more than love, when it comes to any Art Form. There must be Visionaries. And the understanding of many disciplines. Not simply very narrowly focused one. It must be allowed to grow and flourish. It would appear that this is indeed taking place. I'm gratified to see it. We all need such an organization. Makers and collectors alike.

M. Lovett
Click to expand...

A.G., with all apologies, there were flames wars, and some nasty ones, in this Forum going back to the beginning, well before I got here.

Lovett.....yes and no.

We kicked around a lot on e-mails before anything became public. The first ideas were of something akin to a buying group....definitely elitist, where collectors would open up their homes to others in the group....as the ideas got kicked around more, it became less appealing to some, and Kevin threw some stuff up on BladeForums.

IT WAS NOT about snobbery AGAINST stock removal....just that most of those involved in the e-mail discussions were collectors of forged bowies....the thought was that we (as a group) were not sufficiently diverse enough to appeal to stock removal collectors...not that we wanted to exclude any one.

But you would not know about a lot of that because you were NOT involved with those e-mail discussions.

THOSE discussions laid the foundation for what was discussed at the Micro-show...Kevin ran with it, and recruited a whole bunch of people to do different things. He is a visionary, and I share his vision, but frequently disagree with how to get there, so it isn't like he is some uber-demagogue...everything changed when we went live, and the response has been amazing....the membership controls the Association, we just facilitate it...not everyone is going to be happy, and sometimes, some are definitely not, but once we went live, no one has resigned in disgust, and the interest levels from the community are high.

There are numerous individuals in the world who hold their lack of appreciation of finer things as a quality just as elitist and snobby as the richest of the rich.........Wizard of WalMart, King of Queens, and all that.

IF you are into collecting of ANYTHING for the public "love", you're screwed....it is about the "thing" itself. There is a dude so heavily into vacuum cleaners that his house is a museum of them....think he finds a lot of affinity out there?

In our case, it is about the knives...for me.....MY knives, and most of you undeserving bastids won't ever get to see them while I am alive....HAH!!!
(off to clean off some invisible to other eyes rust spots from a carbon bowie)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
In our case, it is about the knives...for me.....MY knives, and most of you undeserving bastids won't ever get to see them while I am alive....HAH!!!

Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

That problem is easily solved!;)
just jokin.
 
Hmmmm....

I appreciate Roger's post in regard to the ABS! :) At first I thought hlee's posts were a joke.

The ABS was founded to preserve the art of the forged blade... To chastise them for not passing a stock removal knife for a stamp is just about the most absurd thing I can think of.

That belongs in the same category as boys being mad they're not "allowed" in the girl scouts. A classic Corvette car club not having a Toyota Prius in their club.... You get the idea.

To say an organization is snobby for upholding the very purpose for their being... well that's just ridiculous.
 
This thread is really something.

Brownshoe, you seem to collect what you like in a price range that is comfortable for you. I collect something different. Now according to you....which, if either of us is a snob?

Michael, you and I have been friends from the beginning. I am a Charter Member of CKCA. I can see no reason why that should have any effect on our freindship. I will say that what was then..was then and what is now...is now and if you look into CKCA today you might have quite a different view with regard to what you think it is.

It really concerns me that friends and former friends square off at each other here on a subject which at best is subjective as opposed objective. When all the smoke clears and all the arguments have collapsed what will have been accomplished? It is my guess that the friends (and maybe the former friends as a direct result of this) will still have about the same ideas and attitudes they had at the beginning. Nothing will have changed except that some may feel they need to apologize for words chosen in haste.

Now here's where you can all pile on me. I don't think it makes one bit of difference whether it is called custom, handmade or anything else. As long as it was not made on a production line and stamped out like cookies, then I see no reason why it should not be here.

The last point has to do with my perception and I could be wrong, but I have always thought that in the fine analysis that all Forged blades had some amount of stock removal before they were what we call finished, and conversely all stock removal knives started as a piece of steel that had been heated and pounded on at some time or another before it was finished. I guess the finite distinction is that the stock removal guys did not actually heat and pound their billets themselves, but that's really nit picking when considering the finished product.

I've got good friends on both sides of this particular thread and that's just the way I'm going to end my part of it.

Play Nice!!!

Paul
 
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