So...does anyone else hate patinas? :)

sitflyer said:
I wish GEC would make a limited number of every pattern produced in 440C...
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For what it's worth, add me to the list. At least I'd like them to offer the option. I know they're doing fine with 1095, but who says they wouldn't do even better adding 440C on more patterns? I don't recall seeing tons of stainless GEC knives unsold (obviously, only dealers can answer this question).
Back to the patina talk: we all have our tastes. Personally, on a pure aesthetic side, I like some patina's, and don't really love others.
Then...if I buy a carbon steel blade, I know it's going to take a patina sooner or later (I'm not fighting against it), so at least I prefer to force the patina in the direction I like most. :)

Fausto
:cool:
 
mtangent said:
You're right, which means my definition is deficient. I disagree with the idea that rust & patina are the same. They are both forms of oxidation, & there are a large number of oxidative processes iron can undergo.

I still stand by my definition as far as blueing is concerned: the question is; is it a chemical reaction involving the steel, or is it just a coating physically applied.
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It is a chemical reaction with the steel. The solution I am using lists Selenious acid and nitric acid...
 
I like patinas just fine, I don't "force them" but don't have a problem with it either, it has some benefits, personal i just like a knife that changes with time, it's the difference between owning a thing and living with it in my mind. Weirdly I think of my most used knives as friends, and no, I don't have any real ones :p
 
I think a patina that is developed as a result of the use of the knife shows that it has been a tool, NOT a collectors item. While I try to keep my knives clean, shiny is not a goal.

I have sometimes joked with friends who have worked in the Pacific Islands (as I have) that it is easy to recognize a knife, usually a machete, that was used by villagers in Samoa, Tonga, Chuuk, Papua New Guinea and similar places. There is a distinctive, flat black patina produced by breadfruit sap, salt water and pig blood that instantly brands the tool as a genuine Pacific Islands Knife (PIK). The PIK will also have lost its wooden handle and has strips of bicycle inner tube wrapped around it as a substitute. While razor sharp from constant honing, an authentic PIK will also have numerous small nicks on the edge due to contact with volcanic rocks in the food garden. A genuine PIK has an honest patina that was earned, never forced.
:cool: Faiaoga
 
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Faiaoga said:
I think a patina that is developed as a result of the use of the knife shows that it has been a tool, a collectors item. While I try to keep my knives clean, shiny is not a goal.

I have sometimes joked with friends who have worked in the Pacific Islands (as I have) that it is easy to recognize a knife, usually a machete, that was used by villagers in Samoa, Tonga, Chuuk, Papua New Guinea and similar places. There is a distinctive, flat black patina produced by breadfruit sap, salt water and pig blood that instantly brands the tool as a genuine Pacific Islands Knife (PIK). The PIK will also have lost its wooden handle and has strips of bicycle inner tube wrapped around it as a substitute. While razor sharp from constant honing, an authentic PIK will also have numerous small nicks on the edge due to contact with volcanic rocks in the food garden. A genuine PIK has an honest patina that was earned, never forced.
:cool: Faiaoga
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That's one of the most unique descriptions of a 'natural patina' I've seen. :D

Very interesting, and a good post. :thumbup:


David
 
sitflyer said:
...I wish GEC would make a limited number of every pattern produced in 440C...
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Another big +1. The purposeful non-production of 440C options and lack of desireable handle scales is wierd. 440C is plenty traditional.
 
Sign me up for the "GEC needs to offer more knives in 440C" club. The ones I have are all carbon steel but I'd like to have had the option to have the same pattern and handle combos in stainless.
 
I force a patina on all my carbon Steel users. From that point they start developing their own personalities. I always the same solution, boiling vinegar, but my pemberton has nice light grey color, while my 2012 forum knife is a motled blackish. I never undo them, to me it like putting down a down payment. I do have a number of stainless knives, but I really don't carry them much, but my young kids do. I would like a GEC 440C scout knife for my son who turns 8 in a year. Steven
 
This is why I've never liked the too-vague and misleading association of black iron oxide with 'rust' (implying destruction of the steel).
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Well golly jeepers, since I'm the only one who says that around here, perhaps I should comment.

"Rust" is commonly considered red. But in actuality "rust" is the result of the reaction between iron, water, and oxygen. It can be any number of colors depending on the concentrations of the reactants and conditions of the reaction. Any time steel reacts with water and oxygen it is destructive to the steel. The only question is one of rate of destruction. Red rust destroys quickly, black, much more slowly.

The fact that there are products called "black oxide coatings" for steel which are promoted as protecting steel does not mean that they are actually pure black oxide. Black oxide by itself is not effective as a protective layer. It is only effective when combined with oil or corrosion inhibitors to block access of oxygen and moisture to the steel. The oxide layer, being porous, does not create a barrier by itself, but it does afford a place for oil molecules (or similar) to stay. Oiled black oxide is better than oiled shiny steel, because the oxide layer hangs on to more of the oil and the oil forms a better barrier to water and oxygen. (Most corrosion inhibitors for iron are oxygen scavengers or pH modifiers. Many oxide coating processes include a final dip in chromic acid which put chrome into the oxide layer, and we all know that chrome in the oxide layer imparts a certain level of corrosion resistance.)

If black oxide by itself were actually a good barrier to corrosion, then the Golden Gate bridge would have been oxided instead of being being coated with an inorganic zinc silicate primer and an acrylic topcoat.
 
the idea of patina as opposed shiny just grows on you.:thumbup:
 
knarfeng said:
Well golly jeepers, since I'm the only one who says that around here, perhaps I should comment.

"Rust" is commonly considered red. But in actuality "rust" is the result of the reaction between iron, water, and oxygen. It can be any number of colors depending on the concentrations of the reactants and conditions of the reaction. Any time steel reacts with water and oxygen it is destructive to the steel. The only question is one of rate of destruction. Red rust destroys quickly, black, much more slowly.

The fact that there are products called "black oxide coatings" for steel which are promoted as protecting steel does not mean that they are actually pure black oxide. Black oxide by itself is not effective as a protective layer. It is only effective when combined with oil or corrosion inhibitors to block access of oxygen and moisture to the steel. The oxide layer, being porous, does not create a barrier by itself, but it does afford a place for oil molecules (or similar) to stay. Oiled black oxide is better than oiled shiny steel, because the oxide layer hangs on to more of the oil and the oil forms a better barrier to water and oxygen. (Most corrosion inhibitors for iron are oxygen scavengers or pH modifiers. Many oxide coating processes include a final dip in chromic acid which put chrome into the oxide layer, and we all know that chrome in the oxide layer imparts a certain level of corrosion resistance.)

If black oxide by itself were actually a good barrier to corrosion, then the Golden Gate bridge would have been oxided instead of being being coated with an inorganic zinc silicate primer and an acrylic topcoat.
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I just don't think many people call all oxidative processes of iron rust. The stuff we all identify as rust is different to the grey patina chemically & physically. If you want to lump them together, call it "oxidation" rather than rust.
 
Smithhammer said:
^ That's what I really like to see - a patina'd blade with a fresh, shiny edge!
pirateev.gif
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So true, love the contrast
 
One of the major differentiators among oxides is its density. When a corrosion or oxide reaches a density that is some fraction of the base metal, it loses its bond with the base and falls off, leading to production of more of the oxide or corrosion and continued and deleterious destruction of the base metal. By controlling the oxidation process and stopping and oiling it, you get a protective coating. Without the control and inhibition, it proceeds apace, eventually to damage or destroy the base metal. Oxide is oxide and it consumes the base metal as Frank notes.
 
What about "rust blueing" as used with guns? If I'm understanding it correctly, a solution is applied that rusts the steel then it's dunked in boiling water which alters the rusty surface into the durable and great looking blue/black surface. Could knife blades be done this way?
 
people blue knife blades, usually with the cold bluing available in sporting goods stores all the time. looks especially good with the yellow handled knives. technically the rust bluing you refer to is also known as browning and was commonly used on flintlock rifles and muskets. traditional bluing introduces copper or selenium sulfate or other chemicals into the oxidation mix to get the blue into it.
 
I don't hate patina's, but I do prefer my knife blade to be shiny,.

Kris,.
 
To me, a patina is the sign of an uncared for tool. Be they stainless or non-stainless, I like them shiney and sharp. Tuf-Cloth is my friend.

Add me to the list for a 440C GEC.
 
I keep mine pretty clean as time allows. I'll never "force" a patina as some call it though if I slice a piece of fruit with a super blue , O-1 or 1095 blade I'm not going to get upset. I will eventually re satin the blade and get rid of all oxidization. I love to get old Old Timer project knives to fix up, de rust and clean up. If the blade has rust the inside is typically twice as bad. I've often put more man hours into knives than they are worth monetarily but it sure relaxes me. Some of them are given away, some are kept if I don't already have one. I guess I could do worse things with my time.
 
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