So how much better is a higher grade stainless?

J

jzmtl

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So that (assuming appropriate treatment) 420<420HC<440<VG10<S30V, or something like that. But really how much is one better than the other? Does it offer some drastic improvement like 50% performance increase, or is it mere small gain like 5%?
 
I have never cared for 420HC but the old steels like 440C, ATS34, 154Cm are light years ahead of others. Get it heat treated right and you will not be wrong in any way. I think S30v is a fine steel but again, get the heat treat right.
 
The difference in steels is really dramatic when you move from one type to another (154CM, 440C, S30V are however all the same type), but more important is knowing how to sharpen properly, picking the optimal edge angle and grit. Properly sharpened 420HC will easily out cut and out last S30V in all areas of performance.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
The difference in steels is really dramatic when you move from one type to another (154CM, 440C, S30V are however all the same type), but more important is knowing how to sharpen properly, picking the optimal edge angle and grit. Properly sharpened 420HC will easily out cut and out last S30V in all areas of performance.

-Cliff
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Well, not in my limited experience. :rolleyes:
 
With its lower carbide fraction and greater edge stability, a more acute edge can be run on 420HC than S30V, assuming of course decent heat treatment of both. For many practical uses this superior edge geometry will give performance benefits exceeding what S30V with its greater wear resistance offers.

At least I believe that would be the gist of Cliff's reasoning, which I agree with. The only reason the statement may seem shocking is because we as consumers typically only have available 420HC blades in low end cutlery with less-than-optimal heat treat and hardness.
 
znode said:
You mean when the S30V is not ground to the optimal geometry?
Click to expand...

Less optomized yes, geometry is easily as large a factor as steel.

Dog of War said:
With its lower carbide fraction and greater edge stability, a more acute edge can be run on 420HC than S30V, assuming of course decent heat treatment of both. For many practical uses this superior edge geometry will give performance benefits exceeding what S30V with its greater wear resistance offers.
Click to expand...

Yes, for cutting which is influenced by edge stability and not wear resistance, 420HC is a much better blade steel, but as noted, the steels with high edge stability are very cheap and often used on low end knives. If you want to know how these steels can perform then look at the nonstainless low alloy steels with similar carbide structure and hardness, 52100 for example. Those steels generally have close to optimal hardening as they are used in expensive knives.

-Cliff
 
Dog of War said:
With its lower carbide fraction and greater edge stability, a more acute edge can be run on 420HC than S30V, assuming of course decent heat treatment of both. For many practical uses this superior edge geometry will give performance benefits exceeding what S30V with its greater wear resistance offers.
Click to expand...

How thin is thin? Phil Wilson's recent tests quite obviously contradict this statement. And his geometry with 24 deg included angle and 0.006-0.008" behind the edge is not exactly a "sharpened prybar". And there are reasons, why one wouldn't want to go much thinner than this for a lot of applications. And this is for what Phil Wilson considers optimally heattreated steels in all cases. Of course one might argue that one steel should have been harder than the other, but who am I to argue with Phil? I haven't heat treated a single blade and from his posts I know that he tries around a lot so I tend to take him by his word when he says that they are all treated optimally.
 
Hi, HoB. I've never had an S30V blade that would hold a fine polished edge at 24 degrees included, few in fact that I've used would even take such an edge. To be fair, I've never owned a 420HC blade that I considered to be decently hard, so that aspect of the comparison is based upon theory, information made available by others, and personal experience with similar low carbide fraction steels I'm assuming can be considered roughly comparable.

I'm a great admirer of Phil Wilson and enjoy the tests that he's posted here on BFC immensely. However cutting rope is a limited measure of blade performance. Natural rope (i.e. hemp or sisal) is not at all binding, and the individual fibers don't require a fine polished edge to be cut efficiently on a slice. I also don't recall Phil reporting any testing of initial sharpness that would be indicative of how fine and polished the edges of blades being tested actually are -- and this is in no way a fault in Phil's method or work, BTW.

You'll notice that I stated the performance benefits here will be realized in "many practical uses," which means not all (it sounds as though Cliff may be making a stronger argument than that, but I'm not.) For rope cutting, or cutting highly abrasive materials -- stuff that doesn't require a fine edge and where a steel's wear resistance is going to be an important factor -- I would consider S30V a good choice. For other purposes such as fine woodwork, cutting binding materials and especially tough-to-cut synthetics like reinforced hose for example, I think a blade with low carbide content and high edge stability is going to be a better choice than S30V. These kinds of uses, where edge geometry and a very fine edge are more important, constitute a much greater part of my routine knife usage and I imagine that's also the case with a lot of other modern, urban blade users as well.

Add to that the fact that a blade with more acute geometry brings that advantage to bear even when cutting less-suited materials, and I think there's a case to be made that many would find a decent 420HC blade a better all-around choice than S30V. And if we were talking about Sandvik 12C27 or 13C26 here instead of 420HC, I wouldn't equivocate about that statement at all ... but again, I haven't actually used a near-optimally heat treated 420HC blade, so am hesitant to push it any further than that.

As to "How thin is thin?", isn't that kind of an obtuse question? ;)
 
Well, I would have guessed, that you would argue that at sub 10 deg. per side the edge would fall apart....you didn't, so I guessed wrong :).

Well, of course rope-cutting is a very specialized test that doesn't encompass all properties that a steel/edge might have. I have never meant to imply anything different. But I would guess that both of our statements (at least mine was) were in regards to post #4 where the claim was made that "properly sharpened 420HC will easily out cut and out last S30V in all areas of performance." Which is clearly disproven by Phil Wilson's test.

I don't think that Phil polishes his edges. He strops them but I think the final grit on the stone is still fairly coarse. However, all of my S30V (in fact all of my knives) knives are by now 12 deg or less and all of them were mirror polished at some point in time and I haven't had one that fell apart on me. At 24 deg included I haven't had a S30V blade that showed edge degradation of a significantly different type than a blade of any other steel. No significant durability problems. However, I have not experimented with very coarse grits on S30V. The coarsest I have ever left a S30V blade was about 700 grit. This by the way is only with regards to folding knives. I have no interest in a fixed blade, other than a necker, in S30V.
 
Gentlemen, I will jump in here for a little. The testing I do is mostly to check out how the blade is going to perform in real life cutting on game animals, filleting fish and general carry use like cutting cardboard boxes, and working leather for sheaths. As a result a polished edge to me is not that usefull. If I were to do wood carving or minor emergency surgery, if I had to for some reason then a polished edge would be reguired. I sharpen all the steels I use pretty much the same way, the method taught to me by Wanyne Goddard. The Norton combination stone, using the SC side for the inital bevel and the Indial to remove the burr. Hands down this is the most long lasting and durable way to sharpen a working knife in MHO. I have played with shaving edges as well and its fun to see how sharp one can get a blade. I admitt it's much harder at least for me to get a polished, shaving edge on the high carbide CPM steels. It can be done but is it worth it, I will leave that up to you all. My testing tells me that the carbides make a diffference, but the most significant factor aside from sharpening and geometry is blade hardness for the first 50 60 cuts on rope. If a 420HC and 10V blade were compared at the exact geometry and hardness they would both cut pretty egual for a while, but the 10V will walk away as the cuts increase and the fine edge starts to wear down. I have proved this to myself over and over. That is why I tend to put all my knife making effort into the higher carbide steels at as high a hardness as I can get them and still have reasonable toughness. Anyhow for whats it worth that how I see the world... PHIL
 
Phil, I am sure you have done so before, but could you give us once more a link, where one might buy that favorite stone combination of yours, that you are talking about?

I have to amend my last post as well. When I said "mirror polishing the edge" of my S30V blades then I mean I go up to a very high grit. However, it takes much longer to polish S30V than for example an A2 or even VG-10 edge and the final result is still not as "shiny" as for a different steel. But the edge is still way more polished than for example the Spyderco F or even UF are able to produce. I am actually pretty fond of a polished S30V edge. On thread cutting it doesn't perform quite as well as A2 for example (my best results have been with A2, better than with 12C27 for example), but without a scale I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, so I wonder what good these last few gramms do me in practice. However, on paper towel cutting (a slight pull cut that still requires a very fine edge) a polished S30V edge performs usually as good if not better than highly polished other steels. I assume that this has to do with the fact that S30V takes longer to polish and I lack the patience to polish S30V to the same level as other steels and the remaining very fine teeth grab the paper towel better.
 
HoB, You can get the Norton combination stone from trugrit.com. Talk to Scott . I use Windex or equal for stone lubrication. I have a short deal on sharpening on my website with all this info and a little more. Of all the CPM steels the easiest to get a very fine, polished edge on is CPM 154. I use the Norton stone, and go direct to a leather strop with a little Simichrome rubbed into it. Just about 6 strokes on each side and it comes up scary sharp with still a little tooth. This is not the best edge however for rope cutting, but shaves hair nice. Phil
 
Thanks, Phil, your page has excellent information and helped a lot. After browsing the internet for a while (I found the Norton webpage very hard to navigate) I found this page:
http://www.nortonstones.com/Data/El...it.asp?ele_ch_id=L0000000000000005655&Lang=US
And decided to order an 8x3x1/2 Crystalon both in fine and in medium as single grit directly from Norton. They are only $15 each. The 11" medium Crystalon/fine India was a bit to expensive for me for a quick tryout ($54) and since you say on the webpage that the fine Crystalon works better on high carbide steels, I figure I should give the fine Crystalon a try.

Thanks again.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
The difference in steels is really dramatic when you move from one type to another (154CM, 440C, S30V are however all the same type), but more important is knowing how to sharpen properly, picking the optimal edge angle and grit. Properly sharpened 420HC will easily out cut and out last S30V in all areas of performance.

-Cliff
Click to expand...
I call BS on this statement.
 
HoB - maybe you never noticed, but it's struck me for some time that you and I seem to be the primary advocates of 12 deg./side as kind of the best "default" primary edge angle for a wide range of uses. I sometimes multibevel or convex to add relief, and I always finish with a microbevel of 15-20 deg./side depending on intended use and the steel itself, but the edge angle right behind the microbeveled apex is 12 deg/side on a great many of my knives.

Again I've never had much success getting S30V to hold a polished edge with microbevel much less than 20 deg/side, but it has been some time since I've owned anything in the steel and perhaps the industry generally has improved heat treatment. Any makes or makers you can recommend, besides Phil of course, who I'm certain does a very credible job?

I guess the poster in #4 won't be defending that strong assertion, which is perhaps just as well. Hopefully others will take up some of the slack on the theoretical side which IMO has its place in well-balanced discussions.

Phil - as always your contributions here on BFC are very informative, and appreciated. Though I haven't had much opportunity for fishing and hunting in recent years, I find your comments on sharpening very interesting, and have always preferred to sharpen my outdoor knives on medium India, followed up with just a few light passes on fine ceramic but leaving noticeable tooth. Only lately has it occurred to me how very different the needs of the outdoorsman/sportsman are from those of many urban blade users, both in terms of appropriate steels and sharpening ... all of which makes it very hard to address questions like that in the original post here.

It also interests me that you use an India stone regularly, which I have for a long time. It surprises me the many posts I see where people feel you need to use a diamond plate or waterstones for high carbide steels. I've yet to try ZDP-189 or SGPS and maybe those will change my mind when I do, but the same medium India I've been using for years works fine even for modest reprofiling on S30V, VG-10 and such. IMO India really does produce a superior edge as Norton claims.
 
Dog of War,

I've noticed the same thing with polished S30V edges as you, but maybe in a different way. I've chipped out 28 degree edges cutting twine and 30+ degree edges cutting rosebushes and yet; with a 40+ degree polished edge that's 0.008" thick at shoulder; have had S30V cut through dirt, roots, and pebbles with no damage.

Can't wait to read your experiences with ZDP-189 and SG-2 when you get a chance to try them. SG-2 seems to sharpen easier than ZDP-189 at the Brogan household, but both take and hold a polished edge with ease.

Phil,

Thanks much for sharing your experiences and your customers' experiences of your knives and their steels with us. Do toothy edges work better for your uses because they match the behavior of the higher carbide steels, because the extra tooth provides extra traction, because of how they dull as compared to polished edges, or some other reason? I'm one of those "if it can't help me graft neurons, it's dead dull" people, but I don't hunt or process game.

HoB,

Why didn't you send me an email a year or two ago saying you'd read this thread in the future? Would've had a Norton Crystolon/India for you.
 
Dogs, the diamond hones also work nice on the CPM vanadium carbide steels but I just fell into the grove using the Norton stone. It cuts quick and clean. The Silicon carbide is harder than the Vanadium carbides in the CPM steels and the Alum Oxide in the Indial stone is softer. Normally I will use the SC to form the edge and the India to remove the burr. This again is Wayne Goddard's teaching.

Thom, I use the same method on all the steels. I really don't know if the toothy edge is better for say 30V than for 154CM for example. It just seems to work for every thing. I just don't do enough polished edges to be able to compare the difference. Phil
 
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