So there's a ton of big ZTs out (or on their way)... when do we get little ones?

[Adrenaline_6]

I would like to see a small ZT. Not a gents folder just something small and tank like. Something along the lines of a Spyderco Techno or Boker Albatros. You know a Smart Car like ZT.

..or a Spyderco Gayle Bradley. Very nice.

 

[JakeSnake]

I had a Techno for a bit, that was a good knife but way too damn thick.

 

[olds442tyguy]

I'd like to see an 0350 with a more traditional grind and colored G10. Or a liner locking spanto with colored G10. I'm more intrigued by the lower cost Kershaw knives, but will likely avoid them due to the origin of manufacture. Knives like the RJ, Swerve, and Clash should be American made and beefed up as many of the latest ZT's don't look very fitting as a hard use knife. Summer is here and nothing is worse than picking up a knife with metallic scales that are a searing hot 150 degrees. Give us more G10 please!

 

[Ore_Ele]

Not sure if anyone brought it up, but ZT tried this with the 0700, 0750, and 0780. They didn't do so hot and now all are discontinued (despite all being new last year).

 

[bld522]

I think ZT just has not found a market for small 3" knives. It's not their gig.

Nope, it sure isn't. And that's sad, I think. A scaled-down version of the 0560 with a 3" blade would be a real winner IMO.

 

[Ore_Ele]

Nope, it sure isn't. And that's sad, I think. A scaled-down version of the 0560 with a 3" blade would be a real winner IMO.

The 0566 is 3.25 in

 

[olds442tyguy]

Not sure if anyone brought it up, but ZT tried this with the 0700, 0750, and 0780. They didn't do so hot and now all are discontinued (despite all being new last year).

No offense to ZT, but all of those blades failed due to unpopular designs, not because they were small. The Talon was about the dumbest choice for a ZT yet, but KAI decides knives like the RJ should be cheap and made in China? The 0700 would have been a winner, but it looks like someone last minute said "this knife looks too normal" and took a band saw to the grips.

I love ZT, but I know I'm not the only one who prefers their tactical hard use knives to their flamboyant half of the line. I'll take lumps for this, but knives like the 0750 and 0801 to me would be comparable to seeing Bruce Willis talking with a lysp outside of a gaybar moments aftet watching Die Hard.

 

[freewheeling]

3" XM-18s seem to be pretty popular, so a more affordable ZT version (like a 3" 0550) might do pretty well.

I'm pretty sure that the ZT version of the 3" XM18 is the 566 and it's consistent with their downsize of the 300. There are a number of options that come to mind for a "little big knife" that could be used for self-defense in an area with a 3-inch blade limit. They're all Emersons.

Actually, I was just thinking about this and the American-made Zing is kind of a "little big knife." An upgraded ZT version of the Zing would be great. I love the design of the Zing. Maybe they could call it the Zting?

 

[bld522]

I'm pretty sure that the ZT version of the 3" XM18 is the 566 and it's consistent with their downsize of the 300.

I'm sure you're right. But that does not make the 566 a close interpretation of a 3" XM. Among other things, the 566 has a steel handle. The 3" XM has a Titanium handle. As a result, the difference in weight between a 566 and a 3" XM is almost 2 ounces. In addition, the 566 uses a spring-assisted opening mechanism. No XM uses AO.

If anything, the 0566 appears to be more of an upscale Cryo than a downscale 0560. But I'm sure it will sell well if for no other reason than Rick's name is connected to it.

 

[RamZar]

ZT can still make an effective (for end-user and KAI) 3" blade folder without making it too "weird" like 0750, 0780, etc. as long as it has a good handle, blade, action and is somewhat "beefy" to cover the hard-core ZT user needs. You can still pack a fairly reasonable amount of performance into a 3" blade folder. I'd like to see ZT beefier blade takes and design on the likes of Chris Reeve Small Sebenza, Kershaw Random Leek, CRKT Eros and Rick Hinderer XM-18 with 3" Stonewash blade.

I dig ZT folders and am pulling for them to branch out further as they have in other areas.

 

[bld522]

Me too. The proof of the pudding for me is when ZT releases a knife that weighs less than 4 ounces. Could it happen? Is it possible? Does the notion of a lightweight folder exist anywhere inside ZT's frame of reference? Or are pocket bricks (albeit really nice pocket bricks) all ZT knows how to make?

Time will tell. But here's the tantalizing question. If Rick Hinderer . . . Mr. "Hard Use Folder" himself . . . can produce a knife that weighs less than 4 ounces and call it an XM, why can't Zero Tolerance produce a knife that weighs less than 4 ounces and call it a ZT?

 

[Krazy Cash]

Me too. The proof of the pudding for me is when ZT releases a knife that weighs less than 4 ounces. Could it happen? Is it possible? Does the notion of a lightweight folder exist anywhere inside ZT's frame of reference? Or are pocket bricks (albeit really nice pocket bricks) all ZT knows how to make?

Time will tell. But here's the tantalizing question. If Rick Hinderer . . . Mr. "Hard Use Folder" himself . . . can produce a knife that weighs less than 4 ounces and call it an XM, why can't Zero Tolerance produce a knife that weighs less than 4 ounces and call it a ZT?

I'm sure they can if they were so inclined. In fact, i'm sure their designers are mowing through possibilities of them right now.

KAI's smaller, sub 4oz (how this became the standard, I have no idea) knives come in from the Kershaw line. I'm sure if there is enough demand we will see them offering something like a Micro-560 (like a Cryo made stateside) or even an entirely new model line.

 

[bld522]

I'm sure they can if they were so inclined. In fact, i'm sure their designers are mowing through possibilities of them right now.

From your lips to God's ear, my friend. Based on what I've seen, however, it appears that Zero Tolerance tends to equate the ZT trademark with size and heft. I believe it would take a paradigm shift in the minds of ZT engineers to produce a knife that would come anywhere within striking distance of a 3" Hinderer XM. If the 0566 was a stab at that (pun intended), I'd say they have a long way to go.

To be honest with you, and contrary to popular opinion, I doubt the 3" Hinderer XM was even in the minds of ZT engineers when they created the 0566. I believe the knife was predicated on the 0350 . . . a knife that has proven to be extremely popular. Compare the specs of an 0566 with those of an 0350 versus a 3" XM and you'll see what I'm talking about.

While the 0566 will undoubtedly turn out to be a terrific business decision on ZT's part, I suspect it's a death blow to those of us who were hankering after a ZT variant of the 3" XM.

 

[Ore_Ele]

No offense to ZT, but all of those blades failed due to unpopular designs, not because they were small. The Talon was about the dumbest choice for a ZT yet, but KAI decides knives like the RJ should be cheap and made in China? The 0700 would have been a winner, but it looks like someone last minute said "this knife looks too normal" and took a band saw to the grips.

I love ZT, but I know I'm not the only one who prefers their tactical hard use knives to their flamboyant half of the line. I'll take lumps for this, but knives like the 0750 and 0801 to me would be comparable to seeing Bruce Willis talking with a lysp outside of a gaybar moments aftet watching Die Hard.

It's also not just the 07xx (minus the 0770 coming out) series. They've tried smaller folders with higher end blade material in the Kershaw line. The Speedform 2 with an elmax blade died out. And the G10 Leek with S30V steel did as well. People love the leek, but that G10 version didn't move (who knows how much longer the TGRYST will last).

Every time KAI (be it under the Kershaw or ZT label) try to make a small knife with higher end material, it doesn't do so well. Perhaps a 3" US Cryo in the Kershaw line (with just the 14C steel, or a D2 CB) might do well, but I don't think many people outside of collectors will drop $130 (which would be about $180 MSRP) for a 3" knife that is the same style and shape as a $30 knife, when both have the lifetime warranty.

 

[bld522]

You may be right. It's probably best to leave knives like Small Sebenzas and 3" XMs to folks who know how to market them properly. Still, I can't help but wonder how Spyderco can manage to produce and successfully market a knife like a Southard flipper with its Ti handle, thrust bearings, high-quality alloy and low weight (4.1 ounces) while ZT can't figure out how to do that even when the solution lies so near at hand. Sure, the Southard costs more than a 0566. But the tradeoff is that Spyderco held true to the designer's original conception and didn't cheapen the knife in the process of converting it to a production piece just to save a buck or two.

For me, it comes down to which I'd rather have . . . a more expensive product that's consistent with the designer's original concept (e.g., 0560) or a cheaper product whose resemblance to the original is little more than skin deep (e.g., 0566). Generally speaking, I tend to prefer the former to the latter. But future sales of 0566's will undoubtedly confirm that I'm in the minority here.

PS: The killer in all this is that a ZT 056x patterned after a real 3" XM would undoubtedly have a significant impact on Southard sales. Thankfully for Spyderco, ZT doesn't seem to realize that . . .

 

[bld522]

A glimmer of hope?

I happened to be slumming around the Web looking for a potential collaboration piece that had the potential to miraculously fall into the "little ones" category for ZT. With the 0566 on the horizon, I figured Hinderer was beyond all hope. But ZT teamed up with Rexford recently and I thought maybe . . . just maybe . . . something could develop there. So I dropped by Todd's site and came across this:

Some further digging around yielded this thread:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1028741-FIRST-LOOK-Kershaw-Injection?highlight=3820

At first, I was excited . . . a Rexford design in what had the potential to fall into the "little ones" category (4 ounces or less). Alas, the 3820 goes directly to the heart of the matter. Any knife that might possibly fall into the "little ones" category is instantly assigned to the "Kershaw" brand. At that point, odds are it won't have nearly the same kind of materials and build quality it would have had had it been able to carry the "ZT" trademark instead. The 3820 is no exception to that rule.

The strange thing is, KAI's primary competitors . . . Benchmade, Spyderco, and CRKT . . . manufacture high-end knives in the "little ones" category and they seem to be extremely popular. So why can't KAI do that? And frankly, I couldn't care less what trademark KAI decides to carry them under. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet! So here's my challenge to KAI:

Stop equating "quality" with "big and heavy" and make something that gives knives like the Mini-Griptilian, the Sage 2, and the Eros (to name just three examples) a run for their money.

PLEASE!!!

 

[TotalDbag]

I'm sure you're right. But that does not make the 566 a close interpretation of a 3" XM. Among other things, the 566 has a steel handle. The 3" XM has a Titanium handle. As a result, the difference in weight between a 566 and a 3" XM is almost 2 ounces. In addition, the 566 uses a spring-assisted opening mechanism. No XM uses AO.

If anything, the 0566 appears to be more of an upscale Cryo than a downscale 0560. But I'm sure it will sell well if for no other reason than Rick's name is connected to it.

Ok, an xm is $800 the 566 is probably going to be around $140. Now if you prefer the xm to the 566 then stop winning and buy one. And if you already have one, then you shouldn't be whining in the first place. And where have you been?
One of the biggest factors whether a product will sell is the name behind it. Apple? There crap sells at ridiculous prices because of the name. Same with Hinderer, crk, strider, everything.

 

[bld522]

Right. But as I understand it, the idea behind ZT collabs is to bring something near the quality of the original to the common man, so to speak. For the life of me, I cannot equate the quality of a Hinderer XM to anything with a steel handle and AO. YMMV. And no, I'm not willing to pay twice what the manufacturer says his product is worth. I'm an educated buyer and I know what I can get for that kind of money. So even though I can afford an XM, I have no plans to ever buy one.

 

[TotalDbag]

Well you got to compromise somewhere, because your wants are most likely not going to be filled, because like you said, you're in the minority. And companies tend to design for the majoritie's wants.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Right. But as I understand it, the idea behind ZT collabs is to bring something near the quality of the original to the common man, so to speak. For the life of me, I cannot equate the quality of a Hinderer XM to anything with a steel handle and AO. YMMV. And no, I'm not willing to pay twice what the manufacturer says his product is worth. I'm an educated buyer and I know what I can get for that kind of money. So even though I can afford an XM, I have no plans to ever buy one.

Im totally with you on this and have said it for years. Dont get me wrong, I love big bad knives but I think there is a real market for a 3" 0560 like knife and like you I dont find the 0566 to be in the same category. There are many states and counties within those states where knives over 3" are illegal to carry. And I dont think that just because you make a knife shorter that it automatically makes it not as tough as the larger knives. But I understand that Kai may not want to diversify they ZT brand like that. And may have set certain standards in which they wont deviate from. But if thats the case I would be perfectly fine with a Kershaw product in the 3" range with a titanium handle and KVT. Keep the ZT name for the larger stuff. But i would still love to see a 3" KVT titanium knife. And im sure plenty of others would too if designed right. To say that people who want a 3" knife are in the minority to me seems odd. This is a forum and as such its a small scope of the overall knife buying public. Maybe the minority when considering posting members of bladeforums but how are any of us to know what the rest of the knife buying public would want without asking them or offering a product that they can vote with their wallet? They made the Tilt under the Kershaw name. And great past knives like the Ti cyclone and Ti bump used premium materials in a smaller package with the kershaw name. Why cant it be done again?