So you want to rub some sticks together?

[Sharp Eye]

Hey Ira, try this. I hope it's clear enough. I had to take it off an old workshop video.

Doc

Perfect Doc. Thanks!

 

[Diomedes Industries]

You ask why I shoulder the bottom, but really the answer is that I thicken the upper part. Making the whole drill the diameter of the bottom would work well, but for the first time fire maker, especially, string slippage is a major concern so I feel that the increased traction is worth the drop in speed.

I have never seen anybody shoulder the upper end. What would be the purpose?

Doc

Maybe I am crazy - but I thought I have been told to shoulder the top down a bit to make less friction at the hand hold. This makes complete sense now why you commented that I was getting too much burn on my spindles before:

The bottom of the picture is the bottom of my spindle. I shoulder the top to reduce friction and keep the bottom as big as it is to increase the friction at the edge of the spindle where it meets the board.

It makes sense to me (again - I could be wrong) that the larger the spindle - the greater the speed at the edge of the spindle. This ofcourse would have a draw back if you cannot make the spindle spin fast enough.

However - concerning the hand hold top - your pointed top would take care of this.

I also understand completely your answer. Thicken the top is what you are tying to do - not thin the bottom.

I agree with this - I was having trouble with slippage on an old spindle when I made your spindle to give it a whirl (heh heh) slipping when away and I had more control.

TF

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Doc: I think Liam was referring to me. I responded to your request for input. I hope it was received in the manner I meant it, which was to be helpful.

Hartsell, I absolutely appreciated your input as well. That's what I want - input! I'm not saying I will use all or any of it, but I want to see it.

Everybody loves getting praise, but, unfortunately that doesn't improve the body of work. Critical input can.


Doc

 

[untamed]

Awesome stuff Doc! Thanks a lot!

 

[mtnfolk mike]

very cool doc...:thumbup: what an awesome tutorial...

 

[DOC-CANADA]

It makes sense to me (again - I could be wrong) that the larger the spindle - the greater the speed at the edge of the spindle. This of course would have a draw back if you cannot make the spindle spin fast enough. TF

The larger the spindle, the slower the speed. Picture this:
Drill A is 1 unit in diameter, and drill B is 2 units in diameter. Since circumference is Pi x diameter, drill A would have a circumference of 3.14 units while drill B's circumference would be 3.14 X 2 = 6.28. Let's assume, for the sake of illustration, that your string is 12.56 units long, that would mean for each stroke of the bow, drill B would completely oscillate twice, while drill A would completely oscillate 4 times, therefore making drill A faster. So by increasing the diameter of the drill, the speed decreases.
However, the traction between the drill and the string increases, helping to prevent string slippage.

Now if you didn't reduce the diameter at the hearth level, the net effect is reduced speed and less friction in a given area. By reducing the diameter of the drill at the hearth level, you create the same amount of friction, but in a smaller area, therefore concentrating the heat.


The speed at the edge of the drill will always equal the speed of the bow string.

If somebody sees a flaw in my reasoning, please say so.

Doc

TF, I'm really glad you brought this up. I have edited this about 4 times now, in order to get it right, so you have helped me to clarify it in my mind.

Doc

 

[Diomedes Industries]

This makes sense to me. I think what I was thinking was given the same bow string speed - the larger the diameter of the spindle - the faster the speed at the edge of the spindle.

I was thinking this because of the truth it has in machining on a lathe - but bow drilling is unlike a lathe AND it is human powered.

I think your math makes sense. I think, simply stated, the amount of RPM's go down the larger the diameter given the same string travel.

Regardless, it makes no sense to shoulder the top, like you challenged, because of the drill being tipped at the top.

TF

 

[psy-ops]

Wow! This is really informative.

Thanks

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Doc,

After starting 6 more fires today with the bow drill (have I mentioned how much time I have on my hands as a professor?) - I think two things that are crucial are:

1) Stabilizing the spindle.

2) Stopping slippage.

I think your spindle design addresses both of these items.

TF

 

[Diomedes Industries]

I used Doc's methods on Red Cedar - hearth and Fireboard. I got a good coal the first time.

I now think my largest mistake was too much pressure the entire time and not enough speed in the later stages. I would get plenty of powder and no flame. There are two stages - making the powder and then heating it to ember. Now I give moderate pressure to the spindle in the early stages until I see the notch fill with dust - and then ease up on the hand hold and go as fast as I can.

What has really helped is a longer spindle (10 inches or so) for greater control throughout the process.

TF

 

[DOC-CANADA]

I used Doc's methods on Red Cedar - hearth and Fireboard. I got a good coal the first time.

I now think my largest mistake was too much pressure the entire time and not enough speed in the later stages. I would get plenty of powder and no flame. There are two stages - making the powder and then heating it to ember. Now I give moderate pressure to the spindle in the early stages until I see the notch fill with dust - and then ease up on the hand hold and go as fast as I can.

What has really helped is a longer spindle (10 inches or so) for greater control throughout the process.

TF

TF, I'm really getting the feeling that you didn't read the tutorial when I sent it to you.

I use a longer drill because I have a bad back and it means I don't have to bend over as far. A longer drill might work better for you because, after all, you are a Talfuchre!


Doc

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Doc, hope you don't mind but the first question I had in reading Post #1 - was how do I identify an American Basswood. So I'm posting some pictures of trees I obtained from the web.... Sorry kgd, I meant to get back to you. A word of caution, if you do a search on Google Image search for a particular plant or tree, that plant or tree isn't what automatically comes up. It may have come up because of a reference to the plant/tree in question, but is not necessarily the right picture. This first picture does not look like Basswood to me. Neither does the second, although they are at a distance and I could be wrong.

The pictures of the leaves are definitely Basswood (Tilia americana). For your reference, these are the biggest similar shaped leaves in our area. The only other one, with alternate leaves, that comes close to this size leaf, as far as I remember is Redbud and Redbud has a smooth margin (no teeth on the edge of the leaf). There are also a couple of other trees with similar leaves (Catalpa and Katsura) but these have opposite leaves.

When you get a chance, learn to identify it - it is a very useful tree- wood carving, wild food (herbal tea), fibre source for making cordage and rope, emergency winter survival food (buds), excellent wood for friction fire.

This tree does it all. You can carve a bowl in which to rock boil the water for the tea on a fire which you make with the wood (bow, drill, hearth, top bearing, and string and fire wood) and after you can make a rope to hang yourself because you're hopelessly lost and never again will you taste the fine stylings of Wiser's 12 year old.

Doc

 

[Hartsell]

TF, I'm really getting the feeling that you didn't read the tutorial when I sent it to you.

Ah, Talfuchre.... you used a forbidden wood. You must only use the materials and methods as outlined in this tutorial. If you are ever in a survival situation, you must hope that you are in an area that contains Basswood. Do not use Red Cedar, Willow, Cottonwood, Aspen or Sycamore, even if that happens to grow within a foot of your current location.



disclaimer: The above is intended as humor and not meant to offend or irritate anyone

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Ah, Falfuchre.... you used a forbidden wood. You must only use the materials and methods as outlined in this tutorial. If you are ever in a survival situation, you must hope that you are in an area that contains Basswood. Do not use Red Cedar, Willow, Cottonwood, Aspen or Sycamore, even if that happens to grow within a foot of your current location.



disclaimer: The above is intended as humor and not meant to offend or irritate anyone

Accepted as humour. The point, of course, is that doing this over the internet has enough problems of its own. By using a proven wood, I thought it would make it easier to diagnose any problems that might be occuring.

Doc

 

[Diomedes Industries]

No. Doc, I was trying to start a fire with a bow drill for about three weeks BEFORE you sent me the tutorial. I read it - changes my wood and some other things - but I had been GRINDING out crappy coals for weeks before YOU came a long!

I was following instructions in Tom Brown's Survival handbook in particular. He said to use cedar (didn't specify what color) and also he said to INCREASE pressure in the friction phase - THAT in particular was what was screwing me up. I needed to lessen my pressure and go for broke.

Your tutorial helped me a lot Doc - I didn't have any basswood - but I know how it would work well - I used Spruce - but cut my spindle and wood to your specs. I have yet to be skunked after doing so. The parts that really helped me were the spindle construction, the talk of the spindle becoming glazed at that tip (the need for sanding) - rounded around the shaft causing the string to slip - and length (allowing for greater control and less wobbling at the tip). This REALLY helped things.

Also, to settle my need for wood - I have been planting a LOT of basswood trees in my yard so that I don't have to worry.


TF

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Doc - here is some pics of me busting a coal with some new poplar. This coal was a bit harder to produce as it wanted to gring large shavings off or even little black rolls. I eased off the pressure and got a coal on my first try with a properly cut notch. The first notch I cut was too deep.

I could have my wrist locked into my shin a little tighter to strengthen my position a bit.

Don't mind all the sweat. It is Houston - today was about 92 degrees and 80% humidity. So - it was HOT!

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Oh no, another folliclely challenged fire maker!

I'm looking at the picture and thinking what looks weird here? Then I realized, it's the way you are orientated (?) to the hearth. Normally you face the hearth straight on, not at an angle, but, hey, if it works for you.......... although that's part of the problem you're having with locking your wrist against your shin. Picture somebody looking directly down on you, and while leaving the hearth in place, rotating you a bit counterclockwise. That will bring your wrist in closer to your shin. You want to lock it in tight against your shin.

Also get your foot closer to the drill and over the board more, so that the board is under the middle of your foot, rather than the ball, at least thats the way the picture looks to me. I know you have bare feet, but if you can't take a little pain in the interests of skill development..............

Another thing I might suggest is using a bow with a much smaller bowed profile. I know you're in Texas and all but sometimes smaller is better. I would find a bow with that large a profile very awkward to use. But once again, if it works for you................

One other thing, one time I was trying to get a coal on a very humid day with no results, so I changed to Cedar (our version - Thuja occidentalis) and got the coal forthwith. My theory was that the Cedar was less affected by the humidity than the other material, which I don't remember what it was (obviously, unlike you, I do not have a degree in English ).
So the point is, under less than optimal conditions, if you're having problems, change materials - it may help.

Doc

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Thanks for all the advice Doc. I was very happy with being able to adjust to the materials that were new to me. But - moving my foot closer to the hole on the fire board would also help me get my wrist closer to my shin. I certainly put the ball of my foot on the board - I don't have much movement with my hearth - and it is comfortable - but I will experiment with moving it.

As far as me being canted to the board - I think part of it is that my size makes me have to approach the hearth differently. It is comfortable to me and I don't really experience any problems - I will try a straight on approach and see if I can make a go of it.

That particular bow - I LOVE. It allows movement and flex - but it is a springy shrub based wood. I will use it until it breaks - which is will soon because of how much I need to flex it to get the string tight enough. I have another bow - but I like this one more. You can see the leather on the the middle of it to support some of the splitting I have been getting.

Not only was I trying to use this material on a humid day - the material was fresh from the store and could also not be totally dry. I am going to dry it in the sun and try it again.

I wasn't really having a tough time - just very different from the materials I was used to.

Thanks for all your help.

TF

p.s. EDIT: I went out in the garage and made a NICE coal using Spruce on Spruce - first try. I tried your suggestions. The foot placement didn't seem to matter - but I think with smaller wood (this was a 1x4) it would matter a lot.

I tried a more straight on approach - and I find that I cannot balance myself as well - nor can I get my back leg out of the way. However - I am as flexible as red oak...

I tell you another thing you may not want to add to your how - to. When I am struggling to get enough heat and am tiring out - but I have gotten some good powder - I usually can pick up on that base and simply go for heat and get a good coal. This is what I have done many times and I find the second run I can get a good coal really fast. I save my dust!

 

[DOC-CANADA]

First of all, as I've said many times, whatever works for ya......

I'm not convinced that your size makes you squat that way. You are 3" taller than me, but I have a bad back so that should even the equation.

It never hurts to experiment, but if what you're doing works well, there is no reason to change it. I do some things that a lot of people say you shouldn't do, but it works for me. Before you ask, I cant my bow lower at the far end, than the near end because of knee position. Some people say it should be kept level, although with the Egyptian bow drill, there is more incentive to cant it so your string doesn't override itself.

As far as using damp material, check out the link (primitive ways) I provided earlier and scroll down to the piece about damp wood. It's a good technique and it works!

Re: saving the dust. Absolutely! Why would you want to do all that work over again if you don't have to?

Doc

 

[Diomedes Industries]

Doc - I tried White Cedar today as well. MAN is THAT some easy wood. First and second go - easy money!

That is the easiest so far.

I have also a species of pine to try out - I will give that a shot tomorrow.

Then I will start mixing and matching.

Here is what I have to test:

Pine
Poplar
Red and White Cedar

I will mix and match those and record the results.

TF