"sole authorship" - from a collectors point of view

[fitzo]

Fill out your profile....you may catch a knifemaker willing to have you over to let you see how it's done.

 

[j22knife]

Fill out your profile....you may catch a knifemaker willing to have you over to let you see how it's done.

Yeah - I should flesh out my profile. Though I doubt there are many knifemaker near me - I live in Hollywood!

I was thinking more along the lines of a class at a junior college or the Learning Annex.

Thanks

 

[Allan Molstad]

What I have noted:

When I show a person a knife that I made they always are glad to learn that it was hand made.
They will concider the knife, they will ask questions about how it was made?
When I just did stock-removeal people used to react different to each knife.
Learning that I only took a section of steel stood at my grinder and made sparks to form the blade , drove the people to concider the knife as something anyone could have done.

The story of the creation of such a knife was no big deal.

But today when I tell someone that the knife I had shown them was hand-forged, well then , THEN they ask to see it one more time!
The knife went from being thought of as just someone 'anyone" could have made, to now being seen as something no one does anymore!

They will ask to see the knife again, they will look at the very same blade that had just held a moment ago with a new set of eyes, a new understanding as to the real-ness of the blade before them.

It went from being just a sharp tool to now being seen as art.

From now on I will forge all my blades, because it changes the way the blade appears to people. The hand-made forged blade is more than just tool, it's a story of history, it's a connection to the very heart of the fire and the soul of the maker.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

I would guess that a significant majority of the time guys who forge will start with flat bar stock. It is easy to find and you don't NEED a press or power hammer like you arguably do if you are forging out big round bar stock or bearings. One of the advantages that a smith has is that they don't really do the precision grinding on a blade until after they have forged it to shape, so there is not need to spend the extra sheckels for precision ground bar stock. Guys like Ed Caffrey will surface grind their damascus billets for their stock remover customers, but that is not absolutely necessary if you are going to forge to shape.

Jdm61,

As someone who forges exclusively, I believe your opening statement to

be incorrect. Most forgers, prefer to work with large round or

square bars. Big bearings, also are highly sought after.

Forgers who do not yet have access to a power hammer or press

may prefer using flat stock, but those of us with machinery lust after

big dimension steel. Forging a 3 x 1 1/2 inch bearing to shape is what

gets a forger excited.

Fred

 

[jdm61]

Jdm61,

As someone who forges exclusively, I believe your opening statement to

be incorrect. Most forgers, prefer to work with large round or

square bars. Big bearings, also are highly sought after.

Forgers who do not yet have access to a power hammer or press

may prefer using flat stock, but those of us with machinery lust after

big dimension steel. Forging a 3 x 1 1/2 inch bearing to shape is what

gets a forger excited.

Fred

I agree with you on the point that us forgers like using the big stuff. More time forging to me equals more fun and more time to put off the boring stuff like sanding...lol. But I still say that the majority of the time, forgers still use bar stock. The obvious exception would be guys who use a lot of 52100 because there pretty much is no flat stock out there
But it is widely available in the 10xx, 5160, etc steels and, of course, the majority of the guys making damscus probably start with 1/4 inch max bar stock with the notable exception of guys like Kevin Cashen, who apparently starts with 3 bricks of steel.....lol

 

[Fred.Rowe]

I agree with you on the point that us forgers like using the big stuff. More time forging to me equals more fun and more time to put off the boring stuff like sanding...lol. But I still say that the majority of the time, forgers still use bar stock. The obvious exception would be guys who use a lot of 52100 because there pretty much is no flat stock out there
But it is widely available in the 10xx, 5160, etc steels and, of course, the majority of the guys making damscus probably start with 1/4 inch max bar stock with the notable exception of guys like Kevin Cashen, who apparently starts with 3 bricks of steel.....lol

I do use a lot of flat stock in making up damascus billets, but sometimes I will forge flat pieces from bigger dimension steel instead, depending on what the situation is.

I'll put the question up on shoptalk and see what results we get.

Fred

 

[fitzo]

Yeah - I should flesh out my profile. Though I doubt there are many knifemaker near me - I live in Hollywood!

I was thinking more along the lines of a class at a junior college or the Learning Annex.

Thanks

You might be surprised. More than one prop maker for movies makes serious versions of knives. I know of one newbie in Hollywood who makes knives when he's not being a chiropracter.

There are quite a few makers in the greater LA area. A couple hang out here and may speak up. Pick up a copy of Knives 2007 and check the directory in the back.
......................................

Allan, I can't hardly imagine the level of discernment and sophistication in people who would discount a Lloyd Hale knife or an Arpad Bojtos masterpiece as being merely hacked out from barstock or who would "concider [sic] the knife as something anyone could have done". I'm very impressed at the company you must keep.

 

[j22knife]

Thanks to everyone for the great information - I've learned a lot. And I like the side discussion on forging too.

fritzo: I'll definitely look for a knife making class to take.

 

[Gene Martin]

If you live in Hollywood, you aren't that far from Bill Herndon. He lives in Acton and loves to share info. Red St. Cyr isn't that far away, either. Jim Ferguson is in Temecula, he also loves to share info, although his health has slowed him down a bit lately. You have some real good sources down there.

Gene

 

[Dave Kelly]

I was just going to recommend contacting Bill but you beat me to it Gene!
Not sure if the California Forging Clinic is still going on but you could find out from Red St.Cyr http://www.revaforge.com/index.htm
And you can look here, http://www.scblades.com/

Good luck and have fun,
Dave, also from L.A.

 

[j22knife]

Great info Gene and Dave - I'll look into it.

I used to have some friends in Temecula - until they moved to Dallas. Lots of fun to visit the wineries in the area.

 

[Allan Molstad]

Allan,I'm very impressed at the company you must keep.

I think it must be just the normal reaction to learning about the knife they hold.

What I have seen is that people view the work of the hammer and forge in a very different way once they learn that a knife is the result of a true bladesmith working his craft.

I know in my own case that I also felt this same thing when I just used to grind out a knife.
I noticed a clear change in my pride when I switched to the use of a forge and hammer. I no longer felt that I had cheated myself and the blade out a more interesting path, a more interesting story.

I now felt more "ownership" of the steel.
I felt now that I had become the lone person to have decided what the shape and length of the blade would become, and not just because that was what some dealer had in stock...LOL

I believe there is a real need for a bladesmith to be able to hold his head up high when the conversation turns to the topic of our "sole authorship" of our knives.
Yes, there is a case to be made for knives that show the results of many hands, but still there should always be a ranking system that places "sole authorship" as the goal of the bladesmith.
It's the real reason to learn to make knives in the first place.

This is because unless a bladesmith means to learn to make knives that reflect on himself as much as they can there is no point in our learning to make knives.
The truth is I dont really need any more knives in my house, the kitchen is already full of em.
The difference is that the knives that I make myself I value more because they are a work of my own hands.
This is why I should always try to end up with a finished knife that reflects more and more of my own work.

Perhaps I speak of the two different directions I see ahead of a knife maker as they begin this craft?
In one direction I see a way to keep getting new ways to save time. The natural end of this path taken is to just pick up a knife already pre-made, stamp my name on the tang, and call it 'mine'

The other direction is to work and struggle to learn more and more things on how to make each part of the knife reflect my own hands.
The natural end of this path I believe is to learn how to make my own steel and thereby have even more control and authorship of the final blade. To stamp my name on such a finished blade would mean a lot more to me.

 

[fitzo]

There seems to be a peculiar arrogance found only in bladesmiths, that focuses solely on the single skill of forging as being the distinguishing feature that elevates ones knives above all others. Not all by any means, but it's found in too many, especially the newer ones.

I can readily understand where it may be the most important thing in an individual goal set and their personal journey. Indeed, it's a valuable skill to have and a source of great pride.

But, to presume that it defines an ultimate capability by which all knifemakers are to be judged is egocentrism at its worst.

Knifemaking is as a bucket of water. Forging the blade is but one cupful of that water. How does one say one cupful is more important than the rest? It is only the most important to the man that drinks from it. No one really drinks the entire bucket.

This is one of those cat and mouse games that can go back and forth ad nauseum, and thus becomes a waste of time. You're welcome to your own views Mr Molstad. Neither one of us is the defining authority on the matter, for there isn't one. Have a nice day.

 

[Don Hanson III]

"sole authorship" All the work on a particular knife completed by the maker, nothing more, nothing less. Doesn't matter if forged or ground. I forge because I like it and will not tell someone a forged blade is better than a stock-removal blade. It's the end result that counts, did you just finish a good, nice looking knife or a bad, ugly knife

West Coast knifemaking school :
http://www.sierraforgeandfire.com/

 

[GOLDMERIT]

Advertising is not allowed on this forum.
-Cougar Allen :{)
Spam Song

 

[KnifeHead]

What I have noted:

When I show a person a knife that I made they always are glad to learn that it was hand made.
They will concider the knife, they will ask questions about how it was made?
When I just did stock-removeal people used to react different to each knife.
Learning that I only took a section of steel stood at my grinder and made sparks to form the blade , drove the people to concider the knife as something anyone could have done.

The story of the creation of such a knife was no big deal.

But today when I tell someone that the knife I had shown them was hand-forged, well then , THEN they ask to see it one more time!
The knife went from being thought of as just someone 'anyone" could have made, to now being seen as something no one does anymore!

They will ask to see the knife again, they will look at the very same blade that had just held a moment ago with a new set of eyes, a new understanding as to the real-ness of the blade before them.

It went from being just a sharp tool to now being seen as art.

From now on I will forge all my blades, because it changes the way the blade appears to people. The hand-made forged blade is more than just tool, it's a story of history, it's a connection to the very heart of the fire and the soul of the maker.

It's going to depend on the person you're talking to whether or not it matters one hill of beans. I told my daughter-in-law that I was forging knives and she laughed at me because, "Why would you want to do things the old fashioned way!"

If I would have told her that "The hand-made forged blade is more than just tool, it's a story of history, it's a connection to the very heart of the fire and the soul of the maker.", I most certainly would have needed to make a 911 call due to the laughing fit and subsequent hyperventilation it would cause.

 

[synthesist]

Interesting thread..............

I stand a little in awe of smiths and forging, not because it's something I don't know (I took a forge/welding class in high school) but because it's a form of metalwork I've had little call to practice. Living in the Chicago suburbs there aren't many opportunities to learn more about it either, not many bladesmiths around here to say nothing of power hammers. That said (as a collector first and hobbyist knifemaker second), I couldn't care less whether a blade is made using stock removal or a hammer and anvil.

If I am buying a straight knife to use outdoors I want it to cut like crazy and HOLD an edge. I don't wanna have to use a diamond plate to sharpen it so if it's a tad softer that is just fine with me. Kitchen knives (which get used the most of all knives around here) get steeled frequently and I prefer A2 and D2 for those, myself (my wife couldn't care less as long as they cut whatever she needs cut). The way MY collectable/investment knives (knives I put up can be forged or stock removal) are made doesn't matter as long as they are designed RIGHT ( to MY discerning eye) and fit the broad definition of tool/pocket jewelry.

Do I believe that forged knioves cut better then stock removal knives? Nope..
not in a million years. Tim Zowada told me that forged vs. ground is a myth and that the cutting ability depends on how the blade geometry is designed not the steel itself. My interpretation of that is that a blade forged from O1 will not out cut an identically made stock removal knife sharpened by the same person. That's good enough for me.

The BODACIOUS BEAUTY of various damascus/mokume gane materials is where forging is the ticket. Someday I may take a crack at that............ Does damascus cut betta? Do packed edges stay sharp longer? I don't believe it/they do/does. As a collector I wouldn't pass a knife by because it was a stock removal piece. The first thing that I look at is the design (depending on the knife's intended use) and then I consider how it feels in my hand.................... would this feel good if I had to cut up a MOUNTAIN of cardboard boxes with it. I've dehorned several relatively expensive EDC knives to make them suit me better.

Syn

 

[raylaconico]

This thread is interesting. I'll be following it to see what people think. Hopefully more knifemakers will respond. As for me, I do only stock removal and I don't feel my knives would be better if I forged them. When I make a knife, I make sure that the design, fit, finish, and heat treat are the to the best of my ability. I do want to learn to forge someday but only because I think it would be cool to do. I just hope it doesn't make my head bigger and I don't think it will. I feel I have sole authorship because I make my knives and sheaths by myself from start to finish even though I don't make the materials that I use in the beginning.

 

[Allan Molstad]

"Why would you want to do things the old fashioned way!"

Yes,,LOL, I know the same types,
There are always going to be a few who just dont understand.

I have a guy at work who shakes his head when I talk about my wife and I working the steel at my forge.
He just does not get it.
He does not see the point in wanting to do things by hand.
To him, it's "crazy talk" to want to forge a ball bearing into a blade.
His idea of a better way would be to just have a welding shop stamp out all the blanks I would ever need for the next 10 years.
Clearly he just does not understand the point to this at all...

I guess it's to be expected in this day and age.
We live in a world where many people get their food handed to them from a drive-up window, so why would they want to learn to cook?

I think the answer that we can give them to help them see the point is to ask them to try it once for themselves to see for themselves.

I have had a few guys over to my house to watch and be part of the forge work on a knife , and they left with a greater understanding about why it is so important to me that I do this the painfullly slow ways.

Sure not everyone understands at first, but if they have the chance to learn from the right person Im also sure that most people can learn to see the point in the bladesmith's art.

Many times on the message forum Im reading I will see that a guy makes the statement that he has always wanted to try to forge a knife, even if it's just the one time.
My answer is always, "You should!"

 

[jdm61]

There seems to be a peculiar arrogance found only in bladesmiths, that focuses solely on the single skill of forging as being the distinguishing feature that elevates ones knives above all others. Not all by any means, but it's found in too many, especially the newer ones.

I can readily understand where it may be the most important thing in an individual goal set and their personal journey. Indeed, it's a valuable skill to have and a source of great pride.

But, to presume that it defines an ultimate capability by which all knifemakers are to be judged is egocentrism at its worst.

Knifemaking is as a bucket of water. Forging the blade is but one cupful of that water. How does one say one cupful is more important than the rest? It is only the most important to the man that drinks from it. No one really drinks the entire bucket.

This is one of those cat and mouse games that can go back and forth ad nauseum, and thus becomes a waste of time. You're welcome to your own views Mr Molstad. Neither one of us is the defining authority on the matter, for there isn't one. Have a nice day.

Well. as the resident know-it-all, I say that I AM the defining authority and I say that forged blades are better........na, na, na, na, na
lol....just kidding. One of the things that I like about forging aside from the cool old school vibe is that is is yet another way that a knifemaker. particularly a new one, can get that extra bit of self satisfaction, confidence and motivation to drive on.........and it assuages the pain of the inevitable screwup on the grinder....how do you stock removal guys ever get through the first year of destroying blades without quitting or commiting ritual suicide with the first knife you get a good edge on?