"sole authorship" - from a collectors point of view

As a maker and a collector....sole authorship isn't important to me....Honesty and reality are.
Handmade or not handmade is a value to me. "sole of the maker heart of the fire" is a marketing term...nothing more.

If you think forged is better than stock removed blades or vice versa, you are sustible to marketing hype.....Some of the best makers in the country know one is NOT better than the other....it is a marketing tactic...and has been effectively utilized to paint pictures in customers' minds to have them think forged is something mysterious vs. stock removed steel..

Several of the finest slipjoint makers in the world are "stock removers"...
several of the finest straight knife makers in the world are "forgers" and some are "stock removers"......and there are crossovers from either definition.....
Antagonistic self-serving comments and attitudes are no more than antagonistic and self serving.
Handmade to me, according to the definition of the Knifemakers' Guild's definition rules my knifemaking.
"Sole Authorship" is not something I care about as a collector.....and do not intend to achieve as a maker.....

To the antagonistic guy who posts but doesn't exhibit his knives anywhere I can find, Challenge: Exhibit your knives or provide a link to see them.
I would like to see them....by the by, I will not express anything negative about your knives and would be happy to express something positive after seeing them. It is not your work, which I am unfamiliar with, but rather your intention to antagonize that is unwanted.
Otherwise, I can only assume your attitude is either self serving or intentionally antagonistic, or both.
 
Mr. Fraps I've just taken a look at your website, you do some really nice work (especially the pearl handled pieces). I went to the knifemaker's guild website and couldn't find the definition of handmade that you were talking about. I'm not trying to stir the shit or anything, I'm just curious to see what it is. I'm familiar with the Canadian guild's definition and was wondering if they were the same.

As for forging vs. stock removal, we could run around the track on that one on into eternity (as some will and have). I'm a relatively new maker, I've been doing stock removal for about 3 years, and will be starting into forging shortly. I am getting into forging more for the sake of curiousity than anything else - plus I can do some things with a forge that can't be done with stock removal (mokume, san mai, damascus, easier to make integrals). Educating the consumer is the only thing that will really combat the BS. I somewhat agree with your point about marketing, and I hope I'm not stepping into a whole pile of history here, but the OP asked a question as a collector - please don't let this turn into another forging vs. stock removal pissing contest.

Not trying to pick a fight, have a good one,

Nathan
 
Mr. Fraps, I speak only for myself*.

May I humbly say, I agree with most of your opinions on the knifemaking business, perhaps all of them.

All the makers in this thread have made no excuses about showing their work and how they did it, and why. Most of them have spent untold hours explaining their mistakes and triumphs in the form of tutorials that are damn hard to find elsewhere. I'm pretty confident in saying that these men would stand behind their work, and if their techniques were proven wrong, I bet they'd they'd incorporate new ones to make their product better. I can't ask any more than that.

*I am the least-qualified beginner around here, and I readily admit it. Mostly because I hope to learn from experienced craftsmen such as yourself.
 
John Fraps has been around here for 7 years and is known as being tolerant, fair and reasonable. If he has elected to speak up perhaps it is because he wants to know if these strong opinions are based on broad experience or prejudice. There is, after all, a large difference between informed personal preference in knifemaking and intolerant self-righteousness.
But then, I don't speak for John.

Re-read the thread closely and perhaps you'll see what he did.
 
fitzo said:
"It's a knife. Here's how I did it. You decide for yourself."
Click to expand...

That's probably the best advice. I'm certainly capable of making up my own mind about what appeals to me.

Of course, it's easier to make an informed decision if you're armed with subject matter knowledge. I've learned quite a bit from the posts on this thread and board. I intend to continue learning.

For knives I've purchased, I've asked the knifemakers to tell me about their materials and process - and they've been quite happy to do so. So, I've been able to decide if their product appeals to me or not.
 
I'm curious about the idea of sending out heat treating being a disqualifier for sole authorship.

IT's much on my mind because I'm fighting with it a lot, of course. I can profile and bevel okay, and get weirdly lost in finish processes for FAR FAR too long, but heat treating is pretty darned iffy right now. Experience, lack of a smith around for tutoring, materials (propane, charcoal, oil), and so on- it all has a cumulative effect.

Still, I don't intend to send anything out for heat treating as long as I'm working carbon steels, but do you REALLY lose sole authorship of a folder because you had the spring heat treated somewhere? This seems sillier than the damascus thing making you suddenly not a knifemaker.
 
The first time I heard the term "sole authorship" it was in reference to the work of Jim Schmitt. Great work and he is missed. "Sole authorship" does mean alot to alot of collectors but not all. I have already stated what I feel it means earlier in this thread, so I will not argue.

John, I feel your frustration with information/opinions from the inexperienced.
 
It seems perfectly clear to me that the fellows who have posted since my last post are due an apology. Sometimes I can go off the deep end.
My challenge was aimed specifically at one poster on this thread.

NDallyn, Your compliment is kind, I won't live long enough to get to the level of some of the other knifemakers. You did say one thing in a much better way than I did....forged vs stock removal will go around the track forever.....

GibsonFan, I got frustrated with the postings of one individual who apparently wasn't listening to some very experienced knifemakers posting on this thread.....and wasn't showing any intent to do so.

Koyoto, in my opinion on my knives, I feel that if I don't do the heat treat, they are not sole authorship. If they contain damascus material that I didn't make, then my knives are not sole authorship.
They are handmade according to the definition of the Knifemakers' Guild because I intend to meet that criteria on my knives. It isn't the only way to look at knives.
What Fitzo said and 122Knife agreed with is a fine way to look at it....then decide. Looking at a knife, talking with the maker about how it was made and of what,,,and an honest answer from the maker is what matters....
I will tell a client I have materials and effort and time and hopefully pride in a knife.
What I said less elloquently earlier is that "heart of the fire and sole of the bladesmith/maker" is a "picture painting marketing term". If one firmly believes that his knife contains such items,,,,,Well....

Joe and Don, Thanks for the feedback....I will stay calmer now for awhile anyway
 
Ignorance is a disease of the uneducated. I visit these forums to medicate myself. Personally, I try to avoid the terms like "sole authorship" because most regular people (potential customers) don't know what it really implies. Usually the first question I'm asked is "Did you make that?" usually followed by "How?". I've actually referred more than one person to these forums, the ABS website, the various guild websites, etc. as a way to help them make an educated choice about what they want in a knife and a maker. I'm nobody special, I've still got a lot of learning ahead, and every time I come here I find something else to work on and do a little bit better.


Have a good one,

Nathan
 
For me, sole authorship is not a marketing tool that I will use, but just the way I like to do it. Hey.......at the stage of the knifmaking journey where I currently am (still waiting at the bus stop) I need every little bit of confidence boosting that I can scrounge. So even if I mess somehting up, which I always do, there will be a number of steps in the process where I get things spot on and the more the merrier. I haven't sold any of my knives yet (self confidence issues, combine with the bar being set so high by you SOB's......lol) but on a number of the ones that I did, I bough rough cast or rough machined guards from suppliers and mangled them to my own specs. I have a few left, but I haven't used any for a little while and don't plan to use them anymore. I would tell a potential customer that I used one. I still have no plans in the immediate future to make sheaths and what I tell people is that I will provide a sheath by someone like Sullivan's, Treestump or Kenny Rowe at my cost. But things like this would not stop me from buying a knife. I draw the line at some of the mid-tech makers being a little fuzzy on the whole factory/custom thing, particularly in the pricing department, but that is a discussion for another day.
John......the Guild's definition of handmade is pretty clear, but especially with the kind of knives you make, sometimes there have to be some pretty fancy machines between your hands and the knife. I would think that you would have to become a VERY skilled precision machinist to make those fancy folder. But YOU are the machinist doing the work and not Old Bill down at the local machine shop. Whereas I cut guard slots and drill holes with my mini-mill abd badly at that...lol. A qustion that came up recently was whether doing complex stuff on a CNC driven mill that you programmed yourself is "cheating"
 
There is some serious BS to wade through here. Can I get an amen on that?

When discussing knives, We tend to get stuck on buzz words; is it forged, do you do your own heat treatments, do you, "edge pack" the blade. blah blah.
Sometimes, We don't see the knife for all the hype.

If I could ask only one question of a knifemaker, it would be; "do you always seek perfection in your work" If his answer is yes, then I will purchase the knife.
If he is honest in his dealings and I like his work, thats all that matters.

You can not attain a state of perfection as a knifemaker. It is much to subjective. All you can do is strive for it. A great knife is a great knife no matter who heat treated the blade. Give a fine bar of damascus to an unskilled maker and see if he turns out a, "great knife" I have seen some pretty nice billets turned into junk.

When new to anything, we tend to focus on the more mysterious aspects of what we are trying to learn. When our focus should be on the practical and mundane.
When I started forging, I went right out and bought myself a coke forge, because thats what forgers do. Cough Cough Now, some years down the road, I have sold the coke forge and I operate a digitally controlled gas forge, because thats what makes sense.

Best regards to all, Fred
 
Fred.Rowe said:
You can not attain a state of perfection as a knifemaker. It is much to subjective. All you can do is strive for it. A great knife is a great knife no matter who heat treated the blade. Give a fine bar of damascus to an unskilled maker and see if he turns out a, "great knife" I have seen some pretty nice billets turned into junk.
Click to expand...

:thumbup: That's we we have old bearings and leaf springs right? So that the newbies don't destroy anything nice?:D

This is probably my main reason for not using damascus yet. I've got a piece of Alabama damascus on the shelf (been there for almost a year) but I'm too afraid of wrecking it to touch it yet. And there's no way I'll be trying out any Devin Thomas billets yet either (although I'm so tempted to try).
 
Fred.Rowe said:
There is some serious BS to wade through here. Can I get an amen on that?

When discussing knives, We tend to get stuck on buzz words; is it forged, do you do your own heat treatments, do you, "edge pack" the blade. blah blah.
Sometimes, We don't see the knife for all the hype.

If I could ask only one question of a knifemaker, it would be; "do you always seek perfection in your work" If his answer is yes, then I will purchase the knife.
If he is honest in his dealings and I like his work, thats all that matters.

You can not attain a state of perfection as a knifemaker. It is much to subjective. All you can do is strive for it. A great knife is a great knife no matter who heat treated the blade. Give a fine bar of damascus to an unskilled maker and see if he turns out a, "great knife" I have seen some pretty nice billets turned into junk.

When new to anything, we tend to focus on the more mysterious aspects of what we are trying to learn. When our focus should be on the practicaland mundane.
When I started forging, I went right out and bought myself a coke forge, because thats what forgers do. Cough Cough Now, some years down the road, I have sold the coke forge and I operate a digitally controlled gas forge, because thats what makes since.

Best regards to all, Fred
Click to expand...
Seek perfection? Yes.....Find it? HELLS NO!!!!!! lol........At least not yet.:D
 
Fred.Rowe said:
There is some serious BS to wade through here. Can I get an amen on that?
Click to expand...

Amen brutha!:thumbup:

Some of this stuff is hard to read. Not because I have trouble reading but because there is so darn much of it and it's the same stuff over and over. The same guy keeps popping up and crappin in our nest and then goes off to poop in another nest while we wade thru this poop, ad infinitum. I agree with Frap...you were right to call Allan out. He will let everthing calm down and be back later, take another dump and stir up a stink. That's entertainment right there! :D

I'm waaaaaay new to knife making so I am no authority but the knife is a very simple tool. It is simply a cutting tool that holds an edge or not. It takes a lot of BS to complicate the simple facts of that. There is room for improvement upon the basic tool as far as eye appeal and edge retention but when it's all boiled down, it's just a knife.

There are ugly knives that cut great and great looking knives that don't cut worth a damn. Heck, alot of collectors don't ever cut a thing with their knives. Why are we using up good tool steel for "wall hangers" and "safe queens"? There seems to be a lot of weird thoughts and ideas about knives in general and I think it is because people have to be creative to complicate the knife, and they DO!
 
This thread has raised a side issue in my mind, at least the last few posts. We talk about sole autorship. The last issue of Blade had an article on a maker whose ship has come in, and I'm glad for him. Yet the pics of his shop show no knife making equipment. All I szaw were DRO's and CNC machines. I didn't even see a grindxer. It looked like a one man production machine shop, nothing more or less.

I am not disparaging the maker. I'm glad that he's reached the point he has and hope that he will continue to grow. But it wasn't a knife shop, it was a straight machine shop. He could as easily make aircraft widgets. Hi knives, while quality knives, are no more custom or handmade than those of Chris Reeve.

Where do we draw that once again inaginary line between handmade and production. It has no bearing on the number of shop elves. Once the numbers are put in the machine a 10 year old can crank out parts. Don, I'm particularly interested in your comments on this because I know you are a machinist and produce some fantastic knives. I have a small mill and a mini lathe, a surface grinders, 4 drill presses and various grinders. All of my stuff is the archaic variety, not the do it by the numbers machines.

Is this the handmade knife of the future? The only hand work is chucking up parts, final assembly and sharpening, as in production shops.

Comments?

Gene
 
Gene, I'm no machinist at all. I build knives the old fashion way, have a mini mill, a 60+ year old surface grinder (for folders), belt grinders and only one drill press. No jigs either. I do use a couple very old power hammers though. What you are talking about here, just about sank the Knifemakers Guild, big fight and a bunch of members left a few years back. I don't care how a maker makes his knives as long as he's up front about it and lets his customers know how they're made.
 
Hi Gene,

If I sold all the machinery in my knife shop, I could afford a nice CNC machine. I don't know if I could "teach it" to make, what I make. Probable!
But I get bored, making the same thing, where the machine does not. Repetition is what it does best. I am looking to invent, a machine likes sameness.
I hesitate to make more than one of anything. I don't have a big collection of knives. The thrill for me is making the knife. Owning them is not important to me. I know, that if tomorrow I was going to the knife shop to make money, I
wouldn't go. I'd go fishing instead. Fred:thumbup:
 
Gene Martin said:
This thread has raised a side issue in my mind, at least the last few posts. We talk about sole autorship. The last issue of Blade had an article on a maker whose ship has come in, and I'm glad for him. Yet the pics of his shop show no knife making equipment. All I szaw were DRO's and CNC machines. I didn't even see a grindxer. It looked like a one man production machine shop, nothing more or less.

I am not disparaging the maker. I'm glad that he's reached the point he has and hope that he will continue to grow. But it wasn't a knife shop, it was a straight machine shop. He could as easily make aircraft widgets. Hi knives, while quality knives, are no more custom or handmade than those of Chris Reeve.

Where do we draw that once again inaginary line between handmade and production. It has no bearing on the number of shop elves. Once the numbers are put in the machine a 10 year old can crank out parts. Don, I'm particularly interested in your comments on this because I know you are a machinist and produce some fantastic knives. I have a small mill and a mini lathe, a surface grinders, 4 drill presses and various grinders. All of my stuff is the archaic variety, not the do it by the numbers machines.

Is this the handmade knife of the future? The only hand work is chucking up parts, final assembly and sharpening, as in production shops.

Comments?

Gene
Click to expand...
You make some excellent points, Gene. As the custom knife business has taken off, some makers, through a combination of good design, mecahnical and/or artistic talent, good business pratices and promotion and the occasional bit of good old fashioned luck have become very succesful and VERY popular. To the point where you can't buy one of their knives anytime soon for love or money and when you do finally get one, you are often afraid to use it for it's intended purpose. Allmakers want to be succesful and keep their customers happy, so some folks have figured out ways to get versions of their knives out there into the hands of the people who want them. Some do this by mecahnizing their shop a bit more than some "hand made" afficianadoes would like. Others outsource some of the rote tasks like blade blanking, etc. Others actually come up with a "mid-tech" production version of their knives for a lower price and another group enters into licensing agreements with the major cutlery companies to produce versions oof the maker's knives. Some makers, Stider coming immediately to mind, have done several of these things. This is a quandry when trying to define or pigeonhole, if you will, the custom knife business. Obviously, the mid to high end knife business is more popular than ever, particularly with those who are not part of the normal group of collectors. These folks want using knives and many times, custom makers cannot provide these made by traditional methods if the makers are trying to make a living at this. So we have mid-tech, etc. I mentioned my concerns about pricing of these knives. Many of them are made with premium materiels, but the makers have overhead that a little guy like me does not have to worry about, so some of the cost savings realized in mass producing the knives are eaten up by the cost of such things as office space, employees and big ads in Blade, Tactical Knives, Guns and Ammo, etc.
After all of this babbling, I will now get to my point....:D Perhaps a problem that some custom makers have is that when some custom maker gets popular and goes mid-tech or production, many times the prices, while not as much as the long established custom maker gets for his handmade pieces, are priced at a point where us newer guys are competing head to head with them in the market. The problem is that even these wave mid-tech and production knives have the cachet of the famous maker, but not the price. Could it be that we custom makers are a little bit concerned that these semi-production knives are perceived by the non-knifenut buyer as being almost the same as the full blown customs and they are going to buy the knife with the name on it that they have read about in mags as opposed to an equally priced or cheaper custom from somebody like me..........or more like somebody who is where i hope to be in a year or so....lol.?;) To me, the concepts of sole authorship or just plain old handmade, custom or whatever, aren't about some kind of voodoo, but more about personal sevice, flexibilty, quality and one-on-one interaction with the customer.
 
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