Some advice needed please

Hi Guys
Customs haven't opened it, maybe dropped, maybe not, either way someone has been careless. Had the chip been in the package i would have happily fixed it myself. I bought this knife because it seemed to me to represent good value for money using nice materials. I would have been perfectly happy with the transaction had the retailer agreed to fix the problem and then let me have first refusal on it. I do understand that a retailer does not want to be depending on third party (the maker) results for a conclusion but that is what the refund should take of.
I thought i had been a good customer with 9 happy transactions this year and didn't think it too much for a little help to come to a mutually satisfactory conclusion but i was only given one option and it didn't satisfy me
Here are some pics of the knife, sorry about the quality
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh200/FrazerB2007/Wayne Whittaker/DSC00890.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh200/FrazerB2007/Wayne Whittaker/DSC00888.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh200/FrazerB2007/Wayne Whittaker/DSC00894.jpg
my children who argue over which one of them 'owns' every latest knife i get think it's there favorite.
 
Frazer,

Retailers are not knifemakers. They don't fix knives. If a maker sells you a knife that has a flaw, they either fix it or refund your money. If a retailer sells you a knife with a flaw, they give you your money back and you return the knife. It is important to distinguish between what "it would have been nice" for the seller to do and what he was obligated to do.

You say you have dealt with him / them many times before. I assume that you would have been aware of the return policy. Many have it posted on their site and all will inform you of it on request. I doubt any say "if the knife is damaged I will have it repaired". The retailer may not even have purchased the knife directly from the maker himself.

I know you are unhappy, and I sympathize with your position to a large extent. But I am absolutely not with you on your suggestion that the seller was under an obligation to fix this knife or to have it fixed on your behalf.

I have a hard time getting behind your desire to paint this seller as a fiend when he has stood behind the sale 100% and offered you a full refund (even though the knife may well have incurred the damage after it left his hands).

Roger

PS - I just checked the return policies of 4 major on-line custom retailers. You would be in the same position with any of them. Refund only.
 
Just FYI, I did a quick Google search for "Wayne Whittaker" "knives" "knifemaker" and the first entry seems to lead right to Mr. Whittaker, though email contact info was not listed. Google is our friend.
 
Roger

I never asked the retailer to fix the knife themselves
I understand the difference between knifemaker and retailer
I have never said the retailer was under an obligation to fix this knife or have it fixed on my behalf.
I'm sure they are perfectly within there rights to offer refund only.
Unless he also packaged an evil disappearing knife wrecking pixie in the box with the knife the damage was done before it left his hands.
But,
I asked whether they could forward me a new slab from Wayne, they said no. Fair enough, i asked if they were intending to send the piece back to Wayne for repair, they said yes. I asked as i have gone through all the trouble of importing and exporting this knife whether i could have first refusal on the knife when returned and was told no. There is nothing in there policies regarding this situation, I have come here to find another solution. I now have one. The knife retailer as good business practise should have been more helpful, do they have to, No
Do i have to shop there again, No
If i contact the four major retailers you mention and ask whether i would have got first refusal on the fixed knife i would be shocked if any of them would see this as a problem. But i'm not going to, you can if you like and let me know tommorrow so i can add them to my avoid list.
Would you lose a $11500 a year customer this way.
 
Hi Dr Mudd

I have just done exactly the same search from google and and all i get is pages of retailers and some forum entries, maybe you have super google;)
 
Frazer B said:
Hi Dr Mudd

I have just done exactly the same search from google and and all i get is pages of retailers and some forum entries, maybe you have super google;)
Click to expand...

The first entry I read lead me to his hometown and mentioned that he's a member of the Knifemakers Guild, so I think he could be found either by phone or through the Guild. Since his personal information was removed earlier I don't think I should post more details now.
 
Frazer B said:
Hi Dr Mudd

I have just done exactly the same search from google and and all i get is pages of retailers and some forum entries, maybe you have super google;)
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, Frazer, my error. I guess I've been staring at this computer screen too long. It wasn't the first entry on that search, but the third entry. Search Google for "Wayne Whittaker" "knives" "knifemaker" and when you look at the third entry scroll down until you see his name. Good luck.
 
Frazer B said:
Roger

I never asked the retailer to fix the knife themselves
I understand the difference between knifemaker and retailer
I have never said the retailer was under an obligation to fix this knife or have it fixed on my behalf.
Click to expand...

Frazer B said:
Hi Guys
Customs haven't opened it, maybe dropped, maybe not, either way someone has been careless. Had the chip been in the package i would have happily fixed it myself. I bought this knife because it seemed to me to represent good value for money using nice materials. I would have been perfectly happy with the transaction had the retailer agreed to fix the problem and then let me have first refusal on it.
Click to expand...

Ooookay. I don't see any value in embarking upon a hair-splitting exercise in examining how "giving you first refusal on a fixed knife" is substantively different from "having the knife fixed on your behalf".

Bottom line - the seller has lived up to his obligations. You haven't suggested that his return policies encompassed any more than what was offered - a full refund. If you thought those policies insufficient, you ought not to have entered into this purchase - or any of the several others which preceded it. If you don't want to buy more knives from him - hey - that's your choice. But while it can't be said that this seller bent over backwards and did everything he possibly could to make you happy, it equally cannot be said that he treated you unfairly.

Oh - about your sarcastic pixie comment - if you know when and how that knfe was damaged by all means share it with us. If you don't then please restrict your comments to what you DO know - that the damage occurred after the photograph was taken. Which gets you no further than where you were in the beginning - the seller's obligation to offer you a refund - nothing more.

Roger
 
I would send it back and just mark it up to a deal that didn't work out and appreciate the fact that the others did.
9 good
1 bad = pretty good average to me.

Be thankful that you didn't lose any money on the deal.
 
Kevin Jones said:
I would send it back and just mark it up to a deal that didn't work out and appreciate the fact that the others did.
9 good
1 bad = pretty good average to me.

Be thankful that you didn't lose any money on the deal.
Click to expand...

From what I hear, customs can be kind of high in GB.
Last package I shipped there was 2lbs and cost me $28.
Don't know what return postage would be.

Sounds like a good excuse to deal directly with the maker whenever possible. Even though that knife isn't my style, I can't see a maker taking the time it obviously took to make a knife like that, and then let it out the door with a chipped scale.

Would you be able to sell it as is in GB for what you paid? Dollar's a good deal for you guys right now.
 
From what i have read, while from a business standpoint the dealer may be following some definition of standard protocol, i see no courtesy extended to the customer. Acknowledging his aggravation, an apology and offer to accept some fault, or offer a compromise in price.

Not a knife thing, just good manners.
David
 
2knife said:
From what i have read, while from a business standpoint the dealer may be following some definition of standard protocol, i see no courtesy extended to the customer. Acknowledging his aggravation, an apology and offer to accept some fault, or offer a compromise in price.

Not a knife thing, just good manners.
David
Click to expand...

Good point David.
As the dealer or business, there has to be protocol or structure, however the most successful business know how to maneuver that protocol or structure to provide the best customer service.
 
I think the dealer could definitely have done more to keep a good customer happy. Giving Fraser the first right of refusal would have been a very easy thing to do.
 
2knife said:
From what i have read, while from a business standpoint the dealer may be following some definition of standard protocol, i see no courtesy extended to the customer. Acknowledging his aggravation, an apology and offer to accept some fault, or offer a compromise in price....
Click to expand...

Reasonable observation, but keep in mind also that you're only hearing one side of the story.

Roger
 
Roger
Given the side of the story that you have heard an presuming it's true - i know that is going to be hard for you-
What would you have done as the retailer?
Frazer
 
Frazer B said:
Roger
Given the side of the story that you have heard an presuming it's true - i know that is going to be hard for you-
What would you have done as the retailer?
Frazer
Click to expand...

Fraser,

Assuming you can put the sarcasm aside - I know that is going to be hard for you - I would be happy to continue the discussion.

Maybe you don;t have the expression "There are two sides to every story" across the pond. It doesn't suggest that one side must necessarily be lying, but that different perspectives provide a more complete picture for the disinterested observer.

Assuming this was the tone you took with the retailer, I would not be least bit surprised if he were happy to see the last of you. Did you ask him whether he had "packaged an evil disappearing knife wrecking pixie in the box with the knife."? Did you then shake your head in wonder that he didn't want to extend to you first refusal on the repaired knife? Just asking. But I am still only getting your side.

Roger
 
Hi Roger
Here is the correspondence so far, as you can see as soon as i have a problem the niceties stop, i am given one option, i try to find other solutions to the problem but i'm not getting anywhere, so i come here to find a solution of my own. The retailer can choose to refund my money only, as they have done- That is there choice.
I am not happy with this result, i am not being offered any other solutions or compensation for my wasted time and irritation.
I would expect to either have:
Been given help fixing the knife
Been given a discount to keep the knife
Been given first refusal on the fixed knife
Been given free shipping or a discount on a replacement knife
Been treated in a respectfull caring way and not given a rude blunt reply to my problem
Perhaps 'across the pond' we are used to being treated a little better as a loyal returning customer, perhaps that is why the pound is strong. I was dealt with dismissively in my opinion and i as the customer did not feel that i was getting the service that i deserved for my loyal patronage.
I am lucky that this is a relatively low value knife but what if it had been your dream knife by dream maker and it had turned up with something missing. Would you be happy with a policy that does not guarantee you will see the knife again.

FraZer
You have to read the emails from the bottom up

Hi XXXXX,

I'm on the forums now, I'm going to try and get some contact details for Wayne to see if I can get him to repair the damage.

Frazer

Hello Frazer,

I understand your point.

We will ship the knife to Whittaker for him to replace the handle. It
will get shipped back to us, and we will eventually re-list the item.
I will let you know when it lists but there is no right of first
refusal.

We will pay for shipping on this and give you a full credit. We will not
be responsible to you for a process we don't have full control (results
and time).

Regarding another knife, if you want to make a purchase please let me know.

Thanks,
XXXXX XXXXXXXXX

Hi XXXXX

That's not fantastically helpful. I'm based in Spain during the week so
it would mean trying to get someone else to ship it for me. As for the
refund, does it cover all the shipping? if i replace it with the WW
knife you have in stock (Double black) will you also cover the shipping
back to me on that too?
Would you return the knife to WW to be repaired and then resell it or
would you sell it damaged? Would i get first refusal on the resale if
repaired?
If I keep the knife and buy (Double black) what deal can you do me?
Many thanks

Best regards

Frazer

Hello Frazer,

Thanks for the note.

The only way we can handle this is for you to send it back to us for a
refund.

XXXXX

Hi XXXXX

Milan was a very nice show, i got to meet some good people, a few
good
American makers were there and some interesting European guys. It
was
good to see xxxxx xxxxx who i have dealt with by mail a lot and good to
meet xxxxx xxxxxxx- they were both hung over,,:) i wanted to go to Paris
but i was away with work but will make next year. I'd love to go to Blade sometime.
I have just received the two Whitaker knives. I think they are both very
nice pieces. Unfortunately 'Crackle' is not intact, i have attached a
photo just taken. I had another look at your photos on the site and it
looks like it was always a bit fragile there. I looked in the case to
see if the fragment was there as i like the knife and thought I could
perhaps glue it back on but the piece isn't there. As i said I like the
piece but it's leaving a little sour taste with the damage.
Would Wayne have the dimensions to cut another piece and forward
it to me?
Do you have any other suggestions?
Many thanks

Best regards

Frazer

Hello Frazer,

Sounds like a nice knife show in Milan. I attended Paris about 5-6
years ago and it was very interesting. Glad you are hearing good things
about XXXXXXXX We are always trying to do a good honest job.

If you ever get a chance and want to have knife overload attend the
Blade Show in June. It is the "big one".

Frazer, I do like Whitaker's work. I just "discovered" him at a
recent Chicago Show. The first group of his knives sold well, this is our
second selection. It is reasonably priced and uses nice materials. If
you ever get a knife that does meet your standards please send it
back.

Thanks for your feedback and business.

Kind Regards,
XXXXX

Hi XXXXX

That's a shame. It was "Tooth Ache" that i wanted and i ordered the
other two as add-ons. Never mind though you can't win em all. These
knives seem very reasonably priced, is there any issues with the
work or
maker? I have never heard or seen any of his work, i just saw the
knives up and had a closer look, thought they looked good value but you
never can tell till it's in your hand.
You'll be pleased to hear that the maker's i spoke to at Milan
all had only good things to say about 'XXXXXXXX'

Best regards

Frazer

Hello Frazer,

Thanks for your recent order.

The "Tooth Ache" Whittaker had already sold when your order was
placed.
We have the other two knives shipping today via USPS Express.
Adjusted total for the order is $1690.00

We appreciate your business.

Kind Regards,
XXXXX
 
Though they haven't given you many options, I do think they are being pretty reasonable. It would be nice if they were to send you an email the day before they would be listing the knife for sale, but I really can't see anything that I don't consider to be very good customer service.
 
Frazer, I have read this entire post and wish to be a helpful voice. As much as it hurts you to hear, I think the dealer acted 100% professional and managed this transaction properly.

I feel you have an inordinate attachment to knife that is going to kill a relationship with your dealer and leave you with a sour taste for this knife. I suggest you politely take up the dealer on his offer, wait till it gets relisted and hope you hit the trigger first again--if your wish. My guess is that you may easily find another knife of the same quality soon, and probably from the given dealer.

What I haven't heard is a follow-up to the dealer: All of this is going to take time and effort on my part. I wish to remain your client as much as you wish me to remain your customer. What's the best you can do? He should be happy to turn this into a credit for another piece, and at a possible discount. I dunno.

And frankly, that piece of material was precarious to begin with. I wouldn't place blame on the dealer. Or give him a laundry list of options. Just let it go.

I stand behind Roger and his statements. If you take the emotion out of the words, what he says is true. Human nature does get in the way. I hear ya.

Coop
 
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