Some More ?'s About FF D2

I meant factory edge, I guess it is possible to sharpen any steel to splitting hair state. So... you do not have factory edge anymore do you?

Well, if it still able to split the hair... but I guess it is hard to expect such edge retention. Then may be somebody else will be able to do this on factory edge?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
I meant factory edge, I guess it is possible to sharpen any steel to splitting hair state. So... you do not have factory edge anymore do you?

Well, if it still able to split the hair... but I guess it is hard to expect such edge retention. Then may be somebody else will be able to do this on factory edge?

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...
Vassili, I have already stropped my Goddard with a leather belt and white compound, so it wouldn't be a fair "appraisal" of the FFD2. Before I stropped it, it was still popping the hair off my arm, but I stropped it because I want to maintain that high level of sharpness. (I already took the backstraps out of a deer with it)
Having said all of this, I think that tomorrow I will split some hairs. :cool:
- I will keep you posted.
 
nozh2002 said:
Well being called by Sal as steel juncky and having almost any steel available used for knives and bulat, of course I want one, but it is just too expensive. I also want YXR7 and Balbah damascus, but it is also too expensive...

But will you split the hair first?

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...


Wasn't bulat lost, years ago, where did you get a piece from that?
 
What is Bulat?

Good point about the cheap version with say a quick scotchbrite polish. I would imagine after a while they will come out with a more practical version but damn those are some good looking knives they have now. I would love a bare blade so I could make my own handle and do my own polish!

I think this FF blade has the potential to be an awesome EDC with the right blade and handle combo.

I also like the way the knife industry is getting more scientific about the way they test
their knives. There are some significant challenges with testing knives but ideas like doing cutting tests on a scale to keep the force on the edge the same is a great idea.
 
Volk said:
Wasn't bulat lost, years ago, where did you get a piece from that?
Click to expand...

This is different matter, so just Check out my website -
http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/knife83.html

2 Troop

Please! It will demonstrate at least that it will be possible to resharpen - this is common argument by manufacturers who do not want change anything - "It will be hard to sharpen!". As it was told about ZDP189 etc...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Ponjal,

Unsub, bulat is one of those steels the secrets of which has been lost for centuries, the pieces that survive to this day are rear but extraordinary, and are hidden away in private collections or behind thick glasses of museum displays. People have been trying to reproduce it but no luck so far, hopefully they are getting closer. if you are interested Nozh will tell ya more, as I'm sure he is more qualified to answer that.

p.s. Vassili, saw your site before, but just moments ago put 2 plus 2 together that its yours, nice work.
 
D2 is special steel, it has enough Carbon to be Bulat.

For example according to Wirtz (practicing Verhoeven method)

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Bulat-Achim.html#English

To make Wootz you need - "1.5 to 2 % carbon and about 0,01 to 0,1 % of vanadium."

Now look at D2 composition:

C=1.55
Cr=11.50
V=0.90
Mn=0.35
Mo=0.80
Si=0.45

It has already enoght C and bit more then needed V.

Than according to Wirtz cool it slow to have dendric structures.

This is what happen in that huge oven in the matallurgical plant when the make D2 - it cools slowely by natue and creates all this structures...

Next step in Wirtz cookbook - "diffusion heating, at a high temperature, the dendritic structure will be destroyed while the carbides slowly dissolve into the austenite".

This is what they doing in metallurgical plants to D2, otherwise it will be too uneven...

Then they roll it ino the blanks - this way no need to hammer it down - it is done in the plant...

So generic D2 out of plant is half-made bulat (by Wirtz method)! You only need thermo-cycle it whetever times needed (100) and it will be bulat (in terms of Wirtz researches).

D2 is pretty amazing steel which can surprise us any time and this is what may very well happen with this FF technology. It will be nice to see some microscopic researches on it.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I'm not gona argue here with someone who knows a lot more about steel then I do.
here is my .02, the original Bulat was lost long ago, and people have been trying to bring it back, while some are getting close to then others they are still of the original, I learned this from my father. And it maybe outdated and wrong.

But on the bright side, I have a friend in UCSB who's part of a research team, and he told me they are working on something special, its gonna be very, very light (he said it is going to replace titanium and carbon fiber) well they should get it done soon you'll hear a lot more about it.
 
O.K. Vassili,
I split a hair with my FFD2 Goddard. My camera is not as good as yours, so the photos of the hair are not as pretty as yours. But, the hair is definitely split.
I didn't put my magic touch on the edge before I did this...I just stropped it a few days ago w/white compound on a leather belt. This is the "normal" sharpness that I'll be using this knife with.
These are three different photos...I know they look the same, but I was trying to give you a couple of different shots. Sorry for the poor quality.
 
It hard to see, but is it like shave similar to what chisel making to wood, or this is more like diagonal cut? Im my case it is clear curving shave still attached to hair.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
With proper sharpening technique you can get most knives to whittle hair like that. I have gotten all of my knives that I have polished out on 3M lapping film (1 micron and .3 micron) to whittle hair, including standard D2 and CPM D2 (along with ZDP 189, S30V, VG-10, AO Super Steel, 8Cr13MoV, ect.). I even got my CPM D2 to whittle hair with a fine ceramic finish recently. When I am talking about whittling hair I am referring to shaving off curls, like pictured by Vassili, from my wife's hair that I steal from her brush. If I go over the same hair a few times it will look like a corn stalk. I need to figure out the macro on my camera to get a good picture of it. As for factory edges, I haven't got one yet that would whittle hair, but the CPM D2 Spyderco tester I got was able to easily cut free hanging hair. That was the sharpest out of the box blade that I have tried so far.

Kind of back on topic, I would love for a more affordable FFD2 blade to come out to use. Like Vassili said, even without a handle and unpolished just so I could try it out for a cheaper price.

Mike
 
nozh2002 said:
It hard to see, but is it like shave similar to what chisel making to wood, or this is more like diagonal cut? Im my case it is clear curving shave still attached to hair.

Thanks, Vassili.
Click to expand...
Vassili,
Wait....let me get out my electron microscope so I can make a proper determination. O.K., it looks like it split between a strand of DNA and a molecule of baby shampoo. :D
Vassili, I can barely see the hair, and you want depth measurements of the slice. JEEZ! I saved the hair...if you want me to send it to you in a zip-lock plastic bag, shoot me an email, so you can do a proper evaluation of it. :)
- Thanks
 
Mike and Vassili,
You guys have a good time splitting hairs...
I'll be in the woods hunting deer, if ya need me. :thumbup:
 
Troop said:
Mike and Vassili,
You guys have a good time splitting hairs...
I'll be in the woods hunting deer, if ya need me. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

:D

Using a hunting knife for it's intended purpose... :thumbup:

Great post!
 
Troop said:
Mike and Vassili,
You guys have a good time splitting hairs...
I'll be in the woods hunting deer, if ya need me. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

I do it for fun. Sometimes I like to test myself and polish out a blade to those levels, all I did was point out even coarse grained steels can do it when sharpened properly. I'm sure the FFD2 will be able to take a tremendously sharp and polished edge from it's tiny carbides and very high hardness and hold the edge great. I just don't have the $400 to spend on one to try it out, so I am envious of you! My Krein reground ZDP 189 Endura with it's rough finish (Tom Krein 120 grit belt sander finish that tree topped nicely) did just fine skinning out a deer and still shaves real nice. Hopefully I can bag a pig or deer in the next couple months to test it out some more on game. Full flat ground ZDP 189 with a .010" edge seems to work real nice for skinning so far. With a DMT coarse finish it should shave nice and be able to skin out a few animals without a touch up, but maybe not on the same level as your FFD2 knife.

Mike
 
$400 it is also kind of expensive to me, especially when I intrested in steel not really in handle or sheath or polish. Shaving hair is interesting in terms of initial sharpness out of the box which everybody stressing out. So this is why I am wondering will it be able or not.

I heart they have to postpone shipping (when I called them up) because it is too sharp and cut sheath - so they need new sheath...

Hardness 67HRC is what W&H claim for their ZDP189 knives, with similar price tag it is also almost work of art (also too expensive to me). And they have laminated suminogashi etc...

Also I am wondering how FF compared to CPM D2 which also have smaller carbides due to the PM process. And what if zone temper CPM D2 instead of using FF process. Kershaw is coming with laminated CPM D2 (Tyrade), may be they will higher hardness while it is protected by softer sides?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
nozh2002 said:
Kershaw is coming with laminated CPM D2 (Tyrade), may be they will higher hardness while it is protected by softer sides?
Click to expand...


As I understand it, the Tyrade will have a composite blade in the sense that a cutting edge of CPM-D2 will be fused to a spine of 154CM. The 154CM will not be protecting the sides of the D2. See this link - Wire EDM for the Tyrade blade.

It a way it will be similar to an FFD2 blade in that the harder steel will be forming the edge of the blade, but different because there will actually be two different steels.

Troop, thanks for sharing more info about the FFD2 Goddard! Enjoy using it.
 
Unsub and Volk,

Whether you refer to it as bulat, wootz, or pulad, it's never really fully gone away (thanks to the beauty of record keeping). Manouchehr Moshtaq Khorasani found several modern examples of pulad (as well as texts for its manufacture) in Iran and both Greg Obach and Al Pendray of Canada and Ric Furrer of USA (somewhere between Iran and the Canada) have started the bulat/wootz/pulad renaissance in North America.

Here's a picture Khorasani shot of some ancient wootz from the edge of a sword I found in an article at Persian Mirror:

IranianSword1.jpg


Makes beautiful swords and knives, but it sure sounds like FFD2 makes a better hunting knife with all else being equal.
 
thombrogan said:
Unsub and Volk,

Whether you refer to it as bulat, wootz, or pulad, it's never really fully gone away (thanks to the beauty of record keeping). Manouchehr Moshtaq Khorasani found several modern examples of pulad (as well as texts for its manufacture) in Iran and both Greg Obach and Al Pendray of Canada and Ric Furrer of USA (somewhere between Iran and the Canada) have started the bulat/wootz/pulad renaissance in North America.

Here's a picture Khorasani shot of some ancient wootz from the edge of a sword I found in an article at Persian Mirror:

IranianSword1.jpg


Makes beautiful swords and knives, but it sure sounds like FFD2 makes a better hunting knife with all else being equal.
Click to expand...

This is picture of Ivan Kirpichev bulat (not Pendrei, Obach or Furrer, sorry) - he send his examples to ANOUCHEHR MOSHTAGH KHORASANI and being best expert in Iranian blades he qualify that this is same pattern ancient bulat has. And as I remember I presented this article here some time ago.

http://www.persianmirror.com/Article_det.cfm?id=917&getArticleCategory=41&getArticleSubCategory=117

I think I should mention that this is Russian smith Ivan Kirpichev who only was able to reproduce pattern by his "boiling" method - different from Verkhoeven method (with diffusion heating etc), much faster. Because Ivan think that in ancient time there were no diffusion heating - too complicated. So he choose different way and succeed!

However this is Ivan Kirpichev Bulat not old Iranian Bulat, which was made nobody knows how, as well as nobody knows for sure was that legends about miraculas properties of bulat for real or just ancient time PR. So this is why I think right way to say will be bulat of this or that master not THAT BULAT.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. More pictures from Ivan (he sent it do me)

news-135.jpg
 
I'd sure like to FF some of this stuff. It would make a very interesting pattern and the properties, well, would be exciting.

Tracy
 
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