Some More ?'s About FF D2

That's some breath-taking bulat, Vassili! Thanks for the pictures.

Didn't realize I was contradicting you nor understand how I was. Your Manouchehr Khorasani and the Manouchehr Khorasani I know are the same guy. Speaks better English than me, too.

Tracy Nelson,

Do you think that sort of steel, with less vanadium and little to no chromium, would be harder or easier to friction forge? Would it need to have its carbides cluster and aggregate in the beautiful dendritic patterns first or would a more homogenous mixture work better?
 
someone was trying to make wootz using an arc welder. I got myself a silicon carbide crucible and some lump charcoal :D, now if it would just stop raining so I can turn some O1 to powder and get some brake rotor/drum shavings to start playing. Can't even melt my salt in this weather :(.
 
thombrogan said:
That's some breath-taking bulat, Vassili! Thanks for the pictures.

Didn't realize I was contradicting you nor understand how I was. Your Manouchehr Khorasani and the Manouchehr Khorasani I know are the same guy. Speaks better English than me, too.

Tracy Nelson,

Do you think that sort of steel, with less vanadium and little to no chromium, would be harder or easier to friction forge? Would it need to have its carbides cluster and aggregate in the beautiful dendritic patterns first or would a more homogenous mixture work better?
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Thombrogan,

With less Vanadium and Chromium it would be easier to FF with respect to the actual processing. The distribution and morphology of the carbides would be irrelevant as the FF process would break them up and redistribute them. The FF process would make its own pattern.

Regards,

Tracy
 
gunmike1 said:
Kind of back on topic, I would love for a more affordable FFD2 blade to come out to use. Like Vassili said, even without a handle and unpolished just so I could try it out for a cheaper price.

Mike
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1. I don't think it would be a good idea, or work with what seems to be an excellent product, for the FFD2 to be offered as blade only. KOA is not Fallkniven....they make hunting knives right now.

2. It seems pretty simple...if you want it...you pay the price...if not....you no get. The sense of entitlement on the Forums is frequently overwhelming.

3. Tracy...thanks for putting up with the grilling that you and Carl have gotten since, it seems, day one. Once that tacticool model comes out, I will probably buy it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
1. I don't think it would be a good idea, or work with what seems to be an excellent product, for the FFD2 to be offered as blade only. KOA is not Fallkniven....they make hunting knives right now.

2. It seems pretty simple...if you want it...you pay the price...if not....you no get. The sense of entitlement on the Forums is frequently overwhelming.

3. Tracy...thanks for putting up with the grilling that you and Carl have gotten since, it seems, day one. Once that tacticool model comes out, I will probably buy it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Well, I do not see why we can not say that this excellent product is too expensive and try to came up with some way to lower the price tag?

Yes I want it but not for this price - simple also. So I am not getting it. What is so special about this and need to stress it out additionaly?

You ask for tactical knife, we ask for economy variant. Why you can ask and we can not? Why in one case it is not good idea and in another it is?

Thanks, Vassili
 
Kohai999 said:
1. I don't think it would be a good idea, or work with what seems to be an excellent product, for the FFD2 to be offered as blade only. KOA is not Fallkniven....they make hunting knives right now.

2. It seems pretty simple...if you want it...you pay the price...if not....you no get. The sense of entitlement on the Forums is frequently overwhelming.

3. Tracy...thanks for putting up with the grilling that you and Carl have gotten since, it seems, day one. Once that tacticool model comes out, I will probably buy it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Sorry we haven't been on much that past two months. Carl and I have been SWAMPED with work.

With respect to the Wootz, I was not implying that we could, or would, FF Process a Wootz at this time. I was saying it would be very interesting.

Steven is correct in that DiamondBlade manufactures finished hunting knives at this time. We plan to broaden into other materials and possibly cutlery.

Steven,

We don't feel there has been any abuse. Anytime people are passionate about their hobbies and interests, there is heated discussion. And heated discussions (grillings) are good for any new ideas and technologies.. It was our (Me and Carl) objective to get all the data and information we had to those who have an interest. It was also our objective to let people know what we didn't know, and what we were planning to do in the future.

If anyone has a technical question, I hope you won't hesitate to ask. We'll share all we have. We've done the engineering and were very happy with the results. For now, were are waiting to hear the results of some Field testing by knife enthusiasts to see if the knives perform as good in the field as they did in the lab.

We are continuing with our research to better understanding the processes, properties and performance that we have observed. We are also investigating new steels for future knives. We'll keep you abreast of that progress.

Best regards,

Tracy
 
Kohai999 said:
1. I don't think it would be a good idea, or work with what seems to be an excellent product, for the FFD2 to be offered as blade only. KOA is not Fallkniven....they make hunting knives right now.

2. It seems pretty simple...if you want it...you pay the price...if not....you no get. The sense of entitlement on the Forums is frequently overwhelming.

3. Tracy...thanks for putting up with the grilling that you and Carl have gotten since, it seems, day one. Once that tacticool model comes out, I will probably buy it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Just because I wish they made a cheaper model makes me have a sense of entitlement? I'm sorry to "overwhelm" you with this so called sense of entitlement. They make really nice blades in a very interesting new steel (or new processing of that steel) that I would love to test out, and like you say, "you pay the price...if not....you no get". If I had the $400 to pony up for one I would gladly get one and enjoy using it and comparing it to my other knives, however I don't have that much money to spare so I wish for an "economy" model. Probably not in the best interest of their business to bring out such a model, but a guy can always wish for something, right? I come from a user/hobbiest perspective, so obviously my wishes for what they would come out with are vastly different from what a business perspective would be or what a business case could support. I don't think that makes me have a sense of entitlement.

I hope you get your wish of a tacticool model sooner rather than later in this steel so you can spend some of your hard earned money on a cutting tool that brings you some satisfaction, and you can let us know how it performs. I don't think you have a sense of entitlement wanting that model, you would just like to be able to get one. Your wish is definately more realistic than mine, and I'm glad you have the funds to buy it if and when they make it. In the meanwhile I'll have to stick to my cheaper factory knives in less exotic steels and I'll keep a FFD2 blade on my wish list.

Mike
 
nozh2002 said:
Well, I do not see why we can not say that this excellent product is too expensive and try to came up with some way to lower the price tag?

Yes I want it but not for this price - simple also. So I am not getting it. What is so special about this and need to stress it out additionaly?

You ask for tactical knife, we ask for economy variant. Why you can ask and we can not? Why in one case it is not good idea and in another it is?

Thanks, Vassili
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\

1. Just sounds like sour grapes is all.....it is "too expensive" for you, isn't that a more accurate statement?

2. The tactical model is already planned for release....I am not asking for something....just waiting for it.

3. Sure, asking for something is fine....but a lot of the manufacturers on BladeForums bend over backwards to give the Forumites what they ask for, and this very much seems to lead to a sense of entitlement. He-who-shall -not-be-named was a prime provacateur of this. I come from a custom knife background, so "too expensive" is a frequent lament. Even so, if I want that Loveless....it is time to dig deep, otherwise, I no get.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
\

1. Just sounds like sour grapes is all.....it is "too expensive" for you, isn't that a more accurate statement?

2. The tactical model is already planned for release....I am not asking for something....just waiting for it.

3. Sure, asking for something is fine....but a lot of the manufacturers on BladeForums bend over backwards to give the Forumites what they ask for, and this very much seems to lead to a sense of entitlement. He-who-shall -not-be-named was a prime provacateur of this. I come from a custom knife background, so "too expensive" is a frequent lament. Even so, if I want that Loveless....it is time to dig deep, otherwise, I no get.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Yes it is too expensive to me! Is this you point? Well, I have to admit I am not as rich as you are, sorry. I have to work for living etc.

If Diamond Blades is only for rich people - fine for me - go and get it. I will find something reasonable priced.

Simple example ZDP-189 - show very well results and available for everybody, Spyderco making it in production for abou $70. And it is 67HRC for entire blade not only spine and I did not see any report of broken blade.

SRS15 - high speed stainless, huge samurai bowie almost twice cheaper that FFD2 tiny thin knify.

SGPS, CPM D2 even Roaksted YXR7 is less expensive...

So FFD2 being more expensive then many knives I know seems to me overpriced, and one reason for this may be "Presentation Grade Desert Ironwood" and why Black Micarta priced same as IronWood I do not understand - to me this is sing of strange pricing.

I guess it is right of seller to ask any price they want, but it is my right not to buy it if I think it is overpriced. And the fact that I can not pay $400 without asking "What for?", fine with me - you are richer, good for you.

BTW in 1991 my monthly salary was $15...

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. If I remember story about sour grape right, it is not applicable really here. I am not saying anything about quality of this technology. I am saying that it is too expensive. So it is like fox start talking about grape being too high and unreachable, which is not the point of that story... As well as I understand meaning of that, but again I am not as rich as you are, we already discussed this...
 
nozh2002 said:
Yes it is too expensive to me! Is this you point? Well, I have to admit I am not as rich as you are, sorry. I have to work for living etc.

If Diamond Blades is only for rich people - fine for me - go and get it. I will find something reasonable priced.

.
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Vassili.....I work too, M-F.....

1. The basic deal with American hunters is this...they will buy quality...once...and expect it to perform for a lifetime or more. Until Savage came out with some very affordable rifles, any hunter that I knew had Remington or Winchester. The more discriminating have Leupold scopes, those on a bit of a budget, Burris, Redfield or Nikon. Obviously, they want it for the best price possible, but once they decide on an item, at a specific price...they get it.

2. You are looking at a new, proprietary product and saying that it is too expensive. The money put into R&D will probably take a few years to recoup. The way a company recoups that money is to have a premium price. That is how Apple justifies the expense on the i-phone.

3. There are no apples to compare this one to. Have you seen the equipment that they do the FF process with? EXPENSIVE!! Unless Sandvik or Hitachi find a way around the patent and are willing to invest millions of dollars into the production of a boutique process, if you want this metal, you will only be able to get it through DiamondBlade.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I was four years old in 1991. I can't afford one either. Very interesting stuff though.
 
Kohai999 said:
Vassili.....I work too, M-F.....

1. The basic deal with American hunters is this...they will buy quality...once...and expect it to perform for a lifetime or more. Until Savage came out with some very affordable rifles, any hunter that I knew had Remington or Winchester. The more discriminating have Leupold scopes, those on a bit of a budget, Burris, Redfield or Nikon. Obviously, they want it for the best price possible, but once they decide on an item, at a specific price...they get it.

2. You are looking at a new, proprietary product and saying that it is too expensive. The money put into R&D will probably take a few years to recoup. The way a company recoups that money is to have a premium price. That is how Apple justifies the expense on the i-phone.

3. There are no apples to compare this one to. Have you seen the equipment that they do the FF process with? EXPENSIVE!! Unless Sandvik or Hitachi find a way around the patent and are willing to invest millions of dollars into the production of a boutique process, if you want this metal, you will only be able to get it through DiamondBlade.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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You do work? So why the you are acting as an A-H, telling me that I am cheap and you are rich?

Now this is not R&D by AK, they bought it over. This is not equipment created for making blades - this is Friction Welding equipment and they just apply it to blade making edge out of friction welding seam. Most of their investment are in PR so I did not see how this price is justified and so I will not pay - at least I am not too rich to buy things witout such justification - you are different story I assume, but I need to know what I am buying for $400.

Also I hear some bells - when they talk about toughness - they sad, no complain from the customer. So what about their extensive testing? What customer base they are talking about - how many of them they have to refer to absence of complain? How many of this customers are rich as you are to actually test toughness of tiny $400 knife?

So why black Micarta coast same as IronWood as well as Stag? Is it reasonable to charge same?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
tnelson said:
With less Vanadium and Chromium it would be easier to FF with respect to the actual processing. The distribution and morphology of the carbides would be irrelevant as the FF process would break them up and redistribute them. The FF process would make its own pattern.
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Thanks, Tracy! Makes me wonder what the pattern would be. Was asking if it'd be easier or harder under the possibility that steels with more ferrite and less carbides might not be as easy to manipulate while stir-welding/friction-forging/something-done-at-BYUing.

tnelson said:
With respect to the Wootz, I was not implying that we could, or would, FF Process a Wootz at this time. I was saying it would be very interesting.
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It is too early in the day to cry myself to sleep, so instead, I'll hope your continued research and DiamondBlades continued sales allow Friction-Forged D2 knives to achieve enough of an economy of scale so that more people can afford to buy these knives without DiamondBlade losing money on lower-priced sales.
 
nozh2002 said:
You do work? So why the you are acting as an A-H, telling me that I am cheap and you are rich?

Now this is not R&D by AK, they bought it over. This is not equipment created for making blades - this is Friction Welding equipment and they just apply it to blade making edge out of friction welding seam. Most of their investment are in PR so I did not see how this price is justified and so I will not pay - at least I am not too rich to buy things witout such justification - you are different story I assume, but I need to know what I am buying for $400.

Also I hear some bells - when they talk about toughness - they sad, no complain from the customer. So what about their extensive testing? What customer base they are talking about - how many of them they have to refer to absence of complain? How many of this customers are rich as you are to actually test toughness of tiny $400 knife?

So why black Micarta coast same as IronWood as well as Stag? Is it reasonable to charge same?

Thanks, Vassili.
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1. Yeah, I work..have since I was 16. I was speaking nice to you...you insult me. I didn't say you were cheap. I said IF you want the knife...pony up the dough. Poverty is not a badge of honor..it is a fact of life. Maybe you could get a second job, or develop some skills that are in demand?

I'm not rich...I am comfortable...there is a MASSIVE difference.

2. It is reasonable to pay the same for micarta, ironwood, stag in this context....you are paying for the blade. The handle material has been factored into that cost.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
1. Yeah, I work..have since I was 16. I was speaking nice to you...you insult me. I didn't say you were cheap. I said IF you want the knife...pony up the dough. Poverty is not a badge of honor..it is a fact of life. Maybe you could get a second job, or develop some skills that are in demand?

I'm not rich...I am comfortable...there is a MASSIVE difference.

2. It is reasonable to pay the same for micarta, ironwood, stag in this context....you are paying for the blade. The handle material has been factored into that cost.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Well, I did not see it nice - when you stressing out that this knife is not expensive but I just can not afford it and acting like fox with sour grape. I see that you are going personal in this case, questining my opinion on the base of my wealth.

So you are considering this nice?

Well, I can not agree with this.

Now you are saying me - go get some job! You are really nice...

This knife is overpriced and if you will to throw you money away - go ahead. I will not.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Getting mad at STeven is no reason to take it out on the knives. Are they overpriced? Compared to other D2 knives with RC65-67 edges and greatly diminished carbide-sizes?
 
thombrogan said:
Getting mad at STeven is no reason to take it out on the knives. Are they overpriced? Compared to other D2 knives with RC65-67 edges and greatly diminished carbide-sizes?
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That is my point, Tom. Nothing else like this exists right now, so it costs dearly. Saying it is too expensive for you to buy is one thing. If Vassilli wanted to get his hands on one, after I get my tactical, I would send it to him to try out. Same as GunMike....heck there could even be a passaround.

Getting offended because you can't afford it is pointless...I should be mad because I can't afford to fly to space right now?;)

I'll leave the rest of it alone.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
thombrogan said:
According to The Honeymooners, space-travel is free if you can sufficiently anger a bus driver. The drawback is your only available destination is the moon.
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One specific bus driver...and he is long gone.;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
That is my point, Tom. Nothing else like this exists right now, so it costs dearly. Saying it is too expensive for you to buy is one thing. If Vassilli wanted to get his hands on one, after I get my tactical, I would send it to him to try out. Same as GunMike....heck there could even be a passaround.

Getting offended because you can't afford it is pointless...I should be mad because I can't afford to fly to space right now?;)

I'll leave the rest of it alone.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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You continue to misrepresent the point. It is not about the knife it is about you misbehaving. You are trying to compromise my opinion saying that it is all about me not being able to afford it. And this has nothing to do with knife. So I already explain what and why. If you read it it is all there.

This is may be excellent knive and they try to make advantage of it, while nobody know what this really is, only based on articles which coming for "Blade" to "Blade". I will wait until price start looking reasonable, and there is room for it - not make it overfancy. Anyway the knives are not available now.

And do not bother to make me faivor. When I see that it worse it I will buy it, so far I am not convinced to pay $400 just to try.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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