Some More Thoughts on the Native, Spyderco (200K)

[kel_aa]

I would like to share some thoughts about 2 Natives I have cosmetically, and Spyderco in general. Here are some pictures of 2 S30V Native, purchased several months ago. One of them I have carried everyday for about 5 months so far, the other barely touched save for some opening and closing to inspect it. The user one I bought in person, and the non-user one through mail-order (I bought the one in person thinking the mail-order was declined).

I will focus on the lock in particular.
Starting off closed, they look fine. Maybe the lockbar can be a tad longer to fill in the space provide, but no big deal.

Now when they are locked open, imperfections start showing up on my "user" one (forefront). As you can see, the lockbar sinks into the handle slightly behind the blade. Not a terrible important thing, until you see the backend of the lock sticking out.

More to come in a min...

 

[kel_aa]

Another shot from the top. Maybe Spyderco should put in a Boyle detent at the end of the lock too. But again, that is not a big deal, until...

...until the lock is loaded with stress. Here, you can see the lockbar and blade moves so far with respect to the handle as to sit flush again. No, this is not the handle flexing, unless you believe I have hydrolic actuators in my fingers. You can really notice this when cutting thin cardboard, for instance, clicking back and forth from the two metastable positions. The 4 Spyderco FRN lockbacks I've owned at various times all have this clicking, although the major lock/blade movement is only evident on the one Native.

As for an ugly Spyderco edge, here is one. The straight section of the tip is uneven as it is missing some edge right behind the tip. I only mention this in the passing, as pretty soon the tip will look like the last picture anyways (and I forgive them because of the common "problems" with S30V).

 

[kel_aa]

My main issue is the poor lock response. It is just darn annoying. With linerlocks, it may have other problems, but at least it doesn't move backwords when you apply stress. I cannot comment on the strength of Spyderco's lock, but I owned a Cold Steel 3in Voyager and played with someone's V Grande and their locks don't "give."

I brought up the general lock issue in a thread about someone else's lockplay with a Spyderco:

Mr Sal Glesser, can you clarify this statement, as to what extent blade play is not acceptable?

Quote Sal responding to original poster: "The play that you speak of is not normal. I know it's hassle, but if you will contact our warrantee & repair dept, we can probably get you one that is tighter. "

I've had 4 Spyderco FRN lockbacks and they all exhibit this behavior. When fully open and you pull back on the blade, the block slides a little and shifts to a new position. This is really noticable when you cut something stiffer like cardboard. You end up with a lot of "clicking" (from the movement of the blade and lock relative to eachother) as your hand pressure increases and decreases. Some forum members say that these are designed like this.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3747479&postcount=39


Sal responded:

Hi Kelvin,

1/8" is .125. Mire than half the thickness of the blade. I believe this is quite excessive and not normal or acceptable.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3750071&postcount=43

The 1/8" was with respect to the original poster. I took this as admitting some lockplay is normal or acceptable for Spyderco. Sal did not respond to the "clicking" in particular.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have seen lockbars develop that extent tilt from batoning readily, but not from just cutting. However I have seen some develop a light rocking action enough to notice it in cutting cardboard and even foods. Others though are still very solid through very heavy use, the Alantic Salt for example so the performance varies. Were the Cold Steel knives used?

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

My 3in Voyager tanto was bought new, and I had it for a little over a year. Cut plenty of carboard with it. Tried to whittle some seasoned birch D ). Used it as an exacto knife several times, as well as a scrapper on lab benches. No play developed. The V Grande was someoneelse's. It was their daily and only EDC at the time, so I assume it was used adequately. I didn't closely observe the edge though, so cannot guess as to how long they had it. It was flicked plenty, though. I have not tried lockbacks from the other companies. The Spydercos were Delica 3, Assist, and the two Natives here.

PS: It appears my hosting server, picturehosting.org is down for the moment.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have noticed in general comments about play more frequent with Spyderco than Cold Steel. It would be informative to have pictures of the lockup and the play issues are I would assume just mating issues. Possibly someone like STR who does mods and takes apart the knives could comment.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

Apparently I missed a thread back in April. I guess I was studying for the April exams. Hate for Benchmade/Spyderco:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398199

Sal says:
"On the lock-backs, actually our early lock-backs always had some play. Our recent lock-backs are quite tight. Probably some of the best in the industry."

Cliff at one point says:
"Based on what I have seen lockbacks don't have play issues from Spyderco, but users in general tend to have a really small sample base usually, unless they are collectors and it is easy to see where you could get a really poor opinion of you handled a few that were sub-optimal," Post 95

Admittedly I got my Spydeco's all through LeBaron's, but I think four is a significant enough sample size. Really, Spyderco gotta stop sending it's worst pieces to Canada and the Quebecois gotta stop sending it's worst pieces to Ontario.

I remember STR saying that Cold Steel's locks were in general at least comparable to Spyderco's. Lacking the exact words, I will not extend that furthur.

While I respect many of the innovations that Spyderco has made, Spyderco stands in bad light for me as Spyderco let the problem of the poor lock response go unresolved for so long and considering the volume of lockbacks that Spyderco has made. It is indeed possible to make good lockbacks that don't have this problem, as at least some of your products demonstrate and some of Cold Steel's products demonstrate.

I must say it is really a positive feeling for a user when design or production changes are implementated to remedy flaws resulting in an overall improvement. Since I haven't had Spyderco's over many years, I cannot give an specific example concerning Spyderco, but I'm sure there are quite a few. I can, however, give one concerning Benchmade. My AFCK is the old liner lock design and parts of the tang have really rough finish. Incidentally, that is also an area where rust spots tend to appear. Looking at the recent Mini-Grip and 530, I see that all parts are polished. While it may be in part due to the Axis design, at least the corrosion resistance as been improved. Step up to the plate and do that with your lockbacks, Spyderco!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... I think four is a significant enough sample size.

That high an incident of problems yes, you either hit a defective series so it is a systematic problem, or the actual percentage of random problems is high. If you looked at it from the point of view of a 95% confidence decision then it points to a high incidence of problems.

It is indeed possible to make good lockbacks that don't have this problem ...

Indeed, the Alantic Salt I have is rock solid and it is zytel construction. The good thing about public forums is that they provide the ability for feedback both positive as well as negative and the ability for products to evolve rapidly based extensive field trials. Curiously enough, in contrast to Sal's comments the blade play problems I have seen problems reported more frequently now than in the past but this may be due to more discriminating users or simply higher demands due to more information now.

-Cliff

 

[brownshoe]

I don't believe that any play in a lock back is appropriate. I have some very old and abused lock backs, and there is no play. I have a Puma that is so worn, you barely have to depress the bar to get it unlocked, but in a locked position, it is tight. I have a cold steel tanto that's been abused for 9 years and it is rock solid as the day it was bought. I have a Pakistani Bullet that's 12 years old and still solid.

I will say, I've never had any play in a spyderco lockback out of the box. I have had play develop in a G10 Harpy after about 3 years and it hasn't gotten worse in the last 5. It was not returned because the play is minimal, and it's a japanese-made-out-of-stock product which generally means repair is no-go with spyderco.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have lockbacks which are the same, very tight when new and when heavily used.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

Spyderco is welcome again to define the scope of play that is to be expected with their new product and over time. If it this example or the other examples are not within that and it is a manufacturing issue warranting a factory repair, then I'll send them back. I can of understand Spyderco not wanting to publically state though that some play is a manufacturing issue warranting a factory repair as then they might get thousands of lockbacks sent back them. But the issue remains that the performance is worse than what Spyderco appears to claim ("quite tight"), worse than what Spyderco can achieve, and worse than what competitors can achieve. While emotionally I would like one solid lockback from Spyderco, I'd rather see Spyderco raise their standard so everyone can be somewhat guarrentied of a solid lockback whether they buy it in person, through mail-order, or even slightly used.

 

[Joe-Dirt]

I have owned closed to 35 Spyderco lockbacks. None of them have had any play.

I currently have a Delica 4 in my pocket and it has ZERO play.

I realize this may not be helpful to you but I wanted there to be some record of good in this thread.

I often wonder if some of the people that have bad experiences with Spyderco lockbacks are using them for insane things that would make any lockback have play? I'm not saying that's you either. I also realize that some bad ones are going to get out.

I just have a tough time believing you got so many bad Spyderco lockbacks.

 

[kel_aa]

Admittedly I got my Spydeco's all through LeBaron's...Really, Spyderco gotta stop sending it's worst pieces to Canada and the Quebecois gotta stop sending it's worst pieces to Ontario.

LeBaron's is a Montreal-based outdoor goods retailer that serves mail-orders nationally and has several stores in other provinces. Prehaps there is more truth to this than just being a joke, but then that requires someone at Spyderco or Spyderco's distributor to test every knife and select the worst ones...

I'm sure if you find read my posts you will not find me being abusive (those urges get vented on the occasional CRKT and Gerber). I'm the one who says not everyone needs a Delica, and a Caly Jr type of knife would serve many better.

 

[brownshoe]

My point was that abuse shouldn't make a difference. If doesn't make a difference for Cold Steel, Puma and Cheapo-Pakistani, it shouldn't for Spyderco. When I say abuse, I mean my voyager has been batoned with a brick, it's been shoved into 4/4 and twisted to prove tanto-point strength to Melvin-Purvis on this forum, it's been thrown...and more.

In the "good ole days" there were very few complaints on these forums about spyderco lockbacks with play. But in the "good ole days" there weren't Natives going to Walmart contract and free Natives being sent to Iraq. Spyderco's production must have gone up, thus even with the same error rate, you'd be seeing more complaints. Too bad spyderco tightened up its warranty policies so some things that used to be covered or were free repair no longer are.

 

[Joe-Dirt]

Me thinks brownshoe should just buy Cold Steel then and be happy.

 

[rnhood]

I have about 10 Spydercos and one, the "Stretch", has developed blade play when open. I have used it the most however, it has only seen simple usage like opening boxes. I still like the knife because I favor stainless handles over FRN and, it is overall a nicely thought out design. But, I am not carrying it like I used to. I don't think the blade play is a hinderance or handicap in the cutting duties that I typically subject a knife to but, I still struggle with it mentally. I am almost ashamed to show the knife to friends in that it would bother me if they noticed the play when handling it. My reputation, being an engineer, is that I like things to be near perfect. And, blade play is anything but perfect. My other Spydercos have not exhibited any blade play.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Kel_aa,

I guess we've had this discussion before?

I believe that if you have a Spyderco knife that you are not pleased with, you should return it to the dealer or to Spyderco and get one you are pleased with.

To say that you've received 4 out of 4 bad knives is certainly not very lucky.

Spyderco makes many thousands of lock-backs every month. And we've been doing this for 25 years. There are literally millions of Spyderco lock-backs "in the field". We get very few complaints and when we do, we try to please the customer.

I think that if you believe there is another company out there that is currently making better lock-backs than Spyderco, you would probably be happier geting those.

I should comment that I introduced Cold Steel to their lock-back maker and they use our geometries in making their lock-backs.

I have been EDCing two Delica4s and an Endura4 for some time now. They are both tight after much use. I do test my own designs constantly.

I will not say that there is never a glitch or "something that isn't quite right", but I will say that we do extend our best effort to please our cusomers, assuming they are pleasable".

Hi Brownshoe,

I respect your opinion and I admire your consistencey. We have always constantly tried to improve our products, our company and our service to our customers (ELUs). Most of our customers tell us that the knives we are making now are the best we've every made.

Perhaps you've just closed your mind?

sal


sal

 

[kel_aa]

I believe that if you have a Spyderco knife that you are not pleased with, you should return it to the dealer or to Spyderco and get one you are pleased with.
...
To say that you've received 4 out of 4 bad knives is certainly not very lucky.
...
We get very few complaints and when we do, we try to please the customer.
...
I will not say that there is never a glitch or "something that isn't quite right", but I will say that we do extend our best effort to please our cusomers, assuming they are pleasable".

Thank you for coming in here Sal. I don't mind being one of the unluckiest Spyderco customers (if that is the case). What I will mind is being a customer of an inferior product in which the manufacturer/designer refuses to improve upon (if that is the case).

I'll take it as I'm unlucky for now, and see what Spyderco's warranty department can do for me.

Sincerely,
Kelvin.

 

[marty123]

I have one of those Natives that Kel_aa mentions, bought recently at Lebaron (Markham).
Mine had the lockbar sticking up above the scale, similar to his. Unlike Kel_aa's Native, my Native has no vertical play in the blade.
As to the protruding lockbar, I ground it down, by hand, using either a Spyderco medium rod or one of my small DMT Diasharp stones, so that the lockbar is now about flush with the scale. The lock works fine like this. I didn't care about marring the black finish. It rubs off from the blade with use, anyways.
I bought the Native as it was, with protruding lockbar, because it was the last one in the store, it was well priced, the store can be slow to restock, and the flaw was something I could live with.
Still, the protruding lockbar is something of a flaw that can affect lockup by making the lockbar more likely to be inadvertantly depressed by the palm. And not everybody is comfortable with working on their knives to correct flaws such as this; I know I was hesitant to do these things in the past. But now I'm used to working on my knives, usually to improve the grind but sometimes to correct lesser flaws.
On the other hand, my recently purchased Endura 4 has a fair bit of vertical play, developed after only some moderate use. The most play of any of my many Spydercos. Go figure. Still, lockup seems solid. I'm not going to send it in.
And, I want to buy a few more of those Natives; Lebaron has been out them for a while, though. But no more Enduras: not because of the vertical play but because of the handle ergos - not quite right for me.

 

[brownshoe]

Mr. Glasser, I also admire your consistency. Once again you skillfully reply to a loose lock back problem w/o denying that Spyderco finds play in lockbacks acceptable. Hopefully kel_aa won't be like some others who sent in their knives to warranty and were told the amount of play was normal. But then if he identifies himself as kel_aa, I'm sure it'll be taken care of.

Per my supposedly closed mind, thank you again for assuring I maintain my humility. I absorb facts, not spin and come to conclusions that are not the same as yours, sorry if that is closed minded. My mind is open enough to absorb and retain what I read on this and other forums. For example, Queen was having problems with their mountain man lockbacks having play. More than a few complaints on multiple forums. They've fixed every one and they don't even have an corporate "internet presence" on this or any forum nor a formal warranty like spyderco.