Some More Thoughts on the Native, Spyderco (200K)

Hi Marty,

If you have one also, with the same problem, I would guess that something is not right. If I could get you, Kel_aa and anyone esle that has a Native with the lockbar problem indicated above, to please contact our Warrantee & Repair dept and give us the opportunity to make it right. I would also like to take a look at them myself. I know it's a PITA but we'd hate for you to end the purchase displeased. We always extend our best effort to be proper with our customers.

Hi Brownshoe,

Thanx for the info on Queen. They are a good company.

It seems that we are not heading towards a "meeting of the minds", despite my efforts. I guess I will accept that you will continue to try to make Spyderco look bad and I will continue to try to respond in a positive manner. I guess you are one of those customers that we cannot please.

Perhaps we will both be fortunate and the "powers that be" will grant us good health so we may continue our "dance of disagreement" for many years to come.

sal
 
Mr. Glesser, Sorry if re-iterating facts puts spyderco in a bad light. However, it appears that none of the facts are really in dispute. Maybe it's not the light, but the facts, such as "Spyderco's current policy is that lock-back blade play is normal." "Individuals have had lockbacks returned to them by spydreco w/o repair because the blade play is normal." "Spyderco has changed their warranty policy; things once covered are not...things covered by other companies are now not covered by spyderco." "Other companies repair lockback knives w/o dispute when returned with blade play."
 
As I said, I fixed the protruding lockbar on my Native, myself. It's fine for me now. I carry it everyday, along with a Centofante 3. They make a great pair for EDC. Case closed, at least for me.
My only problem now is that I want to buy 2 more Natives (black blade/SE), but Lebaron can't get them in these days. They tell me that they often have trouble
with their Spyderco orders, with knives being backordered. Hmmm.

And just yesterday, I took apart my Endura 4 and largely fixed it's problem with excessive vertical play. Now there's just a little play, and that'll do. Not sending it in.
These adjustments aren't for everybody, though.
Case closed, again.
 
Hi Marty,

Black Natives are not made on a regular basis like our other models. They are added to our Native production as inventory reduces. The coating on the blade and lock is DLC and the vendor has minimum volume plating requirements.

If you are really interested in getting more black Natives, and Lebaron doesn't have them, I can look into it for you? We have a good relationship with Lebaron. They're been carying our line for quite some time.

What did you do to "fix" the protruding lockbar?

Also,

What did you do to "fix" the vertical play?

sal
 
I have 3 Spyderco lock backs (with a G-10 Cara Cara on the way), and handled the Manix and Mini-Manix in a pass around. I really had a negative view of lock backs before I started using Spydercos. Now, I much prefer a lock back to liner locks, which was all I had owned before getting my Spydies. My Native and Endura 3 have no blade play with a good amount of use. My Endura Wave arrived with a fair amount of blade play (vertical and lateral) and the lock bar appeared slightly out of line with the blade. I called Spyderco and they said to send it in. It sucks that I had to ship off my new toy hours after I recieved it, but when you are dealing with fairly high volume production items there are going to be some knives that get out with some problems. The same thing goes for cars, or most any other production line item you buy, not all are going to be perfect. That is why I always look for products from companies that have good warrantees. From what I have seen from Sal here on the forums, I am very confident that Spyderco will make it right and do the right thing.
As for the other 2 I handled, the Manix I used had obvious signs of very heavy use (read: abuse from a LOT of people who got to use it like they stole it), and it had a bit of vertical blade play. I had read here on BF that Spyderco has the position that a slight amount of vertical play is normal, this was the first I had encountered with any play (most likely from the abuse it has seen). Even with the blade play, I had full confidence in that knife, and it never gave a hint that the lock would be a problem, including on some cuts out of a 2 by 3 that literally would have broke the handle off of my Endura 3. The Mini-Manix was bank vault solid, with not even a hint of play, and inspired the same confidence.
I guess the summary is that I really like Spyderco lock backs, even considering I got one bad apple. I will definately post the resolution when I get my knife back, but I have full confidence that I will be happy.
 
I've had my own little problems with Spyder QC, but to their credit, I've gone through at least five lockbacks (native s30v, native vg10, delica, kopa, byrd something or other), and they were all perfect on the first try. I only inspected the S30V native personally, but it hardly seems relevant as the one that walmart pulled out was perfect. I've used surely a dozen more Spyderco lockbacks of friends and at stores. I always check for this kind of thing, given the chance, but still, no problems. Now the compression lock.... :-)

Of course, it's kind of funny, because, in general, I hate lockbacks. Which is why all those ended up gifts. And in general, I love compression locks. And all of those I get have problems. Maybe God hates me.
 
The back of the lock bar also sticks out a little bit (like a few mm) on my Native, but I know it's fully engaging the blade. I seriously doubt this could cause the lock to disengage as, at least with my Native, you have to depress the lock bar as far as it will go for the knife to close. That isn't happening in any normal grip you hold the knife in.
 
As a follow up, I just spoke with someone from the warrantee department and they are replacing my Endura Wave. Now, unless that one comes defective (not likely), I would say Spyderco has made me a very satisfied customer, and done the right thing.
 
I fixed the protruding lockbar on the Native by grinding it down, by hand, with a small DMT Diasharp plate and a medium Spyderco rod so that the lockbar is around flush with the handle. It works fine like this. But this sort of fix is not for everybody.

With the Endura's excessive vertical blade play, I took the knife apart and, looking at how the lockbar mated with the notch in the blade tang, determined (lucky guess?) that the horizontal surface of the lockbar where it met the notch needed to be shaved down a bit so that the lockbar could sink further into the notch. Doing this would, I hoped, produce a better fit between the notch and the vertical surfaces of the lockbar, and reduce the play.I took a little off the horizontal surface of the lockbar with a Diasharp fine plate. This allowed the lockbar to sink a little bit further into the blade tang notch, and the vertical blade play was somewhat reduced to a more acceptable level. It's not perfect but it's okay, and I'll leave it at that. Lockup passes spine-whack and it works fine in actual use as well. It will do.

In the past I would be somewhat incensed by these problems, but now I'm sort of used to them, resigned to them, and the occasional necessity of some do-it-yourself fine tuning of flaws in brand new knives. With Spyderco, and other brands (i.e. Buck) as well.

As to Lebaron, I'll just wait until they get more Natives in. I don't need more, I just want them, and I can wait.
 
Mr. Marty123, since you changed the amount of play in your lockback by adjustment, if you took it apart again, do you think you could eliminate the play? Do you think the reason some companies have no play or can repair the vertical play in lockbacks is because they take the time to hand fit the parts or meet tighter tolerance specifications?
 
Brownshoe, out of my collection of over 200 knives I have exactly 36 Spyderco folders. I have never seen a spyderco knife with a defect in person. Every one of my knives lock up perfectly with no play, or movement of any kind.

Do you really think they aren't hand fitted to extremely high tolerences? If you don't themn I challenge you to go out and buy a few new knives and compare them.

It's obviously you have a thing about spyderco knives. It's also apparent your experiences with them are somewhat different from mine. If it wasn't for the marvel of the internet and forums like this I never would have even heard of a defective, or loose spyderco. Yes, I use mine too, along with my benchmades, kershaws,CKRT's, Case, and several customs.

The only problem I ever saw in one of my spydercos was some edge chipping in a S30V knife. That isn't a manufacturing defect if you know the history of S30 steel.

Go to a store and compare the action and smoothness opening, closing, and unlocking a spyderco to any other knife currently made, including most custom folders.

If you have a broken spyderco that is angering you then send it in to get it fixed. From what I've heard they are decent, polite people and will treat you fairly. That's their reputation anyways. Regards, Joe L.
 
Joe, it doesn't come across to me that Brownshoe has it out with Spyderco. His standard certainly is not low, but in my opinion not unreasonable.

I really didn't test the fit before purchase previously because I was probably spoiled by the first two FRN lockbacks that I handled. In the 4 Spydercos I mentioned here, I kept thinking "this one is an exception, this one is an exception... how can a highly rated company not get this right on their flagship designs?" Now my 5th Spydie is an used VG10 Caly Jr, and its lock is solid under pressure.

There is also this thread going on in the Spyderco Manufacture's forum:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414460

This forum member also has at least 20 out of 20 Spyderco lockbacks that have bit of give under pressure: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3867284&postcount=6

I don't know what to think anymore. I'll be hapy to get my Natives back fixed if possible. If not, I'll live with it. I'm happy I've found a good Caly Jr and Military and don't see myself wanting much in the future except for maybe one from the Salt series.
 
Mr. Mastiff, it's just two simple questions and I did not say anything negative about spydreco in the last post.

If Marty123 believes he could eliminate play entirely with some additional fitting, then this is info that both syperdco and anyone who wishes to fix their own spyderco (or another firm's lockback) could use.

A lot of people have had problems with spydercos, not just me. I won't bother to bore you with my full spyderco history which spans 16 knives and 7 years plus mulitple repair experiences and two knife replacements by the factory. I guess between the two of us, it at least proves that with spyderco YMMV :)
 
My forum lingo isn't that great as I don't know what YMMV stands for. There aren't many knife brands I don't currently have, or have had in the past. I do know that Spyderco has one of the very best reputations for quality and good service too. I still have my first Endura bought back in 92 or so. It still locks up perfectly and has no blade play whatsoever.

I use my knives as knives. They aren't pry bars, shovels etc. I'm ex military and retired law enforcement and they have seen some hard use, but no testing to destruction, or spinewhacking to see how much it can take. Perhaps that's why I have such good luck.

With the amount they produce yearly I suppose it's almost impossible they will have a zero defect history for 20 years but to go out on a limb and suggest they are inferior because they aren't "hand fitted" like some other brands stretches the facts a bit. Spyderco's aren't made and and put together by robots, but by craftsmen both here and in Seki Japan.

If you prefer other brands better, no problem. I like several other brands also myself. I just had delivery today of a cabellas mini grip in D2, and a Ritter mini grip in M2. ( I already have one in 440C and need one in 154C to complete the set).

Anyhow Brownshoe, good luck with your future endevors. Kel, keep those tests coming. They're interesting. Regards, Joe L.

Oh yeah, I've been meaning to give an example of Spyderco's customer service. Here's a typical example:

My salute to Spydie customer service, Endura 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I've written here before, I carried an old ATS-55 Endura off and on for many years. The thing kept on cutting and cutting and cutting. Secretly, I was waiting (almost hoping) for it to die so I'd have an excuse to buy a newer, better model.

Well, I recently sent it in to Golden for a sharpening job. Apparently, Sal and co. felt it needed to be "put down" like a lame philly (the clip would no longer stay in place, but that didn't bother me too much, I just toted in pocket). They replaced the knife with a new Endura 4! Needless to say, I'm beyond impressed with the company's committment to customer service

Now the jury is still out on the new model, however. I can't decide whether I really really really like it, or really really really really like it.

Thanks, Spyderco!
Click to expand...
 
The Mastiff said:
My forum lingo isn't that great as I don't know what YMMV stands for.
Click to expand...

Your milage may vary.

I use my knives as knives. They aren't pry bars, shovels etc. I'm ex military and retired law enforcement and they have seen some hard use, but no testing to destruction, or spinewhacking to see how much it can take. Perhaps that's why I have such good luck.
Click to expand...

While there are some who are doing non-knife like tasks, there are others who have had issues with just cutting for which it would be hard to argue the abuse label would apply.

-Cliff
 
Mastiff123, I said I wasn't going to bore you with my spyderco history, but you seem not to believe my life experience, so I'll give you a few of my "salutes" to spyderco customer service:

(1) Knife repairable but factory refused to fix it because they only replace knives, they don't repair them. My knife couldn't be replaced because it was not current production, but it was easily repairable.

(2) Knife sent in for repair. Couldn't be fixed. Was sent new knife. Liner lock on factory replacement knife failed within 2 days. Sent back. Knife was replaced. Liner lock failed on this replacement knife within 2 weeks. Fixed it myself and it still works.

(3) For another repair, sent e-mail regarding possiblity of repair. No response. Called left message. No response.

As to the implication I am hard on knives, you better believe I would not have received any replacement knives from spyderco if the problem was abuse. It was defective product or design in every case.

By the way, good thing you have a 92 endura, because these days play in a lockback is normal for a spyderco.
 
While there are some who are doing non-knife like tasks, there are others who have had issues with just cutting for which it would be hard to argue the abuse label would apply.
Click to expand...

Like the issues I've had with S30 steel blade chipping on a knife that was just used to open plastic bags containing dog treats. I know these things happen. I've been lucky though.

Brownshoe, you didn't have to go through with all that. Believe it or not your word is sufficient. I do think you have issues that make you see only what you want to see though. If a replacement is offered it's because a knife can't be repaired, or is just cheaper to send a new knife. Touch labor is likely the costliest part of any knife companies costs per knife despite your insinuation that spyderco did no hand fitting whatsoever.

Another example I'll give you why I see you as tending to distort this issue is because of your statement about how I should be glad my endura was made in 92 because "blade play" is acceptable in knives made now, or something to that affect.

Do you really think all my spydercos were made in 92? In a previous post I told you I had 36. From the oldest to the newest ( Horn sprint) guess what? No blade play.

I'm gonna go now. Someone that twists things around like you did with the comment about "blade play now being acceptable" is a person with an agenda, not someone wishing to dialog. I wish you luck. Joe L.
 
You are correct, there is an agenda...truth and lockback knives costing >$50 should be w/o play.
 
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