Spyder Hole and Benchmade = I'm confused

Sorry DWM, that is nonsense (still no flaming, but I happen to know better ;) ). That is an interpretation that came after the fact. The Mercedes star is far older than avionics. The Wright bothers had barely made their first flight when Mercedes was using already their three-pointed star. As a matter of fact Mercedes first trademarked TWO different designs because they couldn't decide which one they would use. One was a four-pointed star that has an uncanny resemblence with the Lincoln trademark. The reason why Lincoln and Mercedes never got into each others hair about it, is the fact that a trademark must be actively used in order to be enforeable. Mercedes never used the four-pointed star and hence lost their rights to it. A trademark works very differently than a patent. But who says that a trademark needs to have a meaning? The only meaning it has to have is that a customer comes to identify a company or product with a certain symbol.


Well crap... Thanks a lot...
I rather liked what I thought the star meant. :(

Thanks for letting me know tho, before I tell even more people and spread the wrong word lol. :) :thumbup:
 
Guys, c'mon, this has been beat to death.

I don't think there is any dispute that Spyderco had a valid patent on the opening hole and that patent went through its life and expired.

Can the trademark be argued? Probably, but that is the job of the company's lawyers and not any of us. I mentioned in the other thread that the legal system is about applying the law to specific facts patterns. Here, we simply do not have all the facts and we probably will not. Let it be.

Coke bottles- while a bottle itself has a functional purpose the shape of it is usually ornamental and not functional and is perfectly capable of being a trademark. Bottle shape has been litigated before.

So, please, I posted a bunch of info and links before, if anyone is interested they can read that stuff, but go grab your knives and use them. This endless going back and forth serves no purpose.

It keeps us busy while we're bored :p
 
Sal has posted in the past that in order to get the round hole registered as a trademark, he had to prove substantial brand recognition. That is, he had to demonstrate that people seeing a folding knife with a round hole for opening identified it as a Spyderco knife. Since the round hole was in fact registered as a trademark of Spyderco, it would appear that he did indeed prove such brand recognition.

Sal has posted in the past that Benchmade was licensed to use the round hole on the AFCK, as long as they aknowledged that it was a registered trademark of Spyderco. That contract was annulled because Benchmade did not aknowledge the trademark to the degree that Sal required. In light of that, I doubt that he would grant them permission to use his registered trademark on the Vex without aknowledging it as such.

What I find both amusing and disgusting is that a few weeks ago on the Benchmade forum, there was a thread about a counterfeit Stryker, and everyone thought that was a bad thing. It was a near copy of a Benchmade Stryker, made by another company, with Benchmade's trademark on it. Much like the Vex is a near copy of a Spyderco Starmate, made by another company, with Spyderco's trademark on it.:rolleyes:

Either you support trademarks or you don't. You can argue all you want about whether or not you think the trademark should have been granted in the first place. Your opinion has no effect on the fact that it was granted, and was in effect at the time the Vex was introduced. If that doesn't make any difference to you, then it should be all right for KIA to use the Mercedes logo on their cars, or for any unknown company to put the Benchmade butterfly logo on their $2 knock off. The trademark means nothing, and that's all there is to it.

Personally, I find both that bogus Stryker and the Vex to be utterly reprehensible, and for the same reasons. I expect that sort of behavior from the overseas knock off artists who counterfeit anything they can make a buck on, but I expect a little more respect from major American makers.

So let your conscience be your guide. My conscience has guided me to boycott Benchmade.
 
That was my Stryker. It was not made by Benchmade, but claimed to be. The Vex is made by Benchmade, and is marked as such.
 
HOLY HELL another thread about the hole? Im am pretty sure that no one can convince EVERYONE to agree with one side or the other there will always be conflicting opinions about this issue, so why even discuss it any further? When that person posted the picture of the guy beating the dead horse he was right this will accomplish nothing just like the other threads about the hole...
 
Either you support trademarks or you don't. You can argue all you want about whether or not you think the trademark should have been granted in the first place. Your opinion has no effect on the fact that it was granted, and was in effect at the time the Vex was introduced. If that doesn't make any difference to you, then it should be all right for KIA to use the Mercedes logo on their cars, or for any unknown company to put the Benchmade butterfly logo on their $2 knock off. The trademark means nothing, and that's all there is to it.

Is this addressed towards me?
 
The Vex has a round opening hole. The round opening hole is a registered trademark of Spyderco. Therefore the Vex has the Spyderco trademark on it. What's the big deal?
 
AFAIK, the round opening hole is not a trademark, Spyderco's trademark does not cover an opening hole. Spyderco doesn't even call it an opening hole, they call it the Round Hole.
 
The Vex has a round opening hole. The round opening hole is a registered trademark of Spyderco. Therefore the Vex has the Spyderco trademark on it. What's the big deal?

Well, it looks like you really know a lot about trademarks, so does a trademark last forever? Once you get one is there any way to lose it?
 
AFAIK, the round opening hole is not a trademark, Spyderco's trademark does not cover an opening hole. Spyderco doesn't even call it an opening hole, they call it the Round Hole.

Yes it does. The trademark talks specifically about a circular through hole in the body of the blade, used to open the blade. That is pretty much all that is covered. A non circular hole is ok as well as a circular hole that is NOT used to open the blade.

The trademark can be found on the US Patent and Trademark Office page. I don't know how to link to it, but maybe this works
http://portal.uspto.gov/external/po...Action/.c/6_0_CH/.ce/7_0_1JJ/.p/5_0_1CH/.d/1#
Click on registration certificate.

This, by the way is all old news. We went through the same thing only 2 years ago with the Skirmish.
 
Trademarks do not expire. You lose them by letting others use them without permission or aknowledgement. You go bankrupt by taking every case of piracy to court, winning and not recovering enough from the case to cover the attorney fees. When you have a knife fight in a liferaft, only the sharks really win.

digitalrebelttu, no that was not not aimed at you, or anyone else in particular. Most of these threads bring up peoples opinions about whether a hole can be trademarked. It has been. Deal with it.

Saying that having the Benchmade logo (trademark) on the Vex makes it OK is like saying KIA can use the Mercedes logo on their cars as long as they put the KIA logo on there, too.
 
Trademarks do not expire. You lose them by letting others use them without permission or aknowledgement. You go bankrupt by taking every case of piracy to court, winning and not recovering enough from the case to cover the attorney fees. When you have a knife fight in a liferaft, only the sharks really win.

digitalrebelttu, no that was not not aimed at you, or anyone else in particular. Most of these threads bring up peoples opinions about whether a hole can be trademarked. It has been. Deal with it.

Saying that having the Benchmade logo (trademark) on the Vex makes it OK is like saying KIA can use the Mercedes logo on their cars as long as they put the KIA logo on there, too.


So, is that the only way to lose a trademark? What happens if someone else wants to argue that the trademark isn't valid? Is there a procedure for that? Or what happens if the trademark becomes a generic name over the course of time- is it still good? And can you trademark an invention?
 
Yes it does. The trademark talks specifically about a circular through hole in the body of the blade, used to open the blade. That is pretty much all that is covered. A non circular hole is ok as well as a circular hole that is NOT used to open the blade.
You're gonna have to help me out here and show me where I can find where the TM says something about the hole being used to open the blade.
 
I assume, when you clicked on the link, you got only the first page of the trademark? There seems to be a browser issue, really weired. There is a link to the description how to fix it right underneath on the same page. See if you can get it to work. In the mean time I am trying to find the picture of the trademark that was posted by someone here on BF when the Skirmish skirmish was raging ;).

Sorry, for my harsh words earlier.
 
I can open the pdfs, but they're only one page each. I can see the part of the description that matches what's on the TESS search results description-the part about the circular through hole through the body of a blade. I just can't see a further notation about the use of the hole as an opener. Maybe if you can save the pdf and up it to a file host.
 
Stupid%20thread.gif
 
sorry hardheart, I take it back. All I can find as well is the registration certificate which is only the one page. Notice how it says: "the configuration of the goods", what is missing is the application with the description of the configuration and I haven't been able to pull it up either. As I said someone (I believe Ted) posted it about two years ago, but the search function doesn't go back that far (only 20 pages and you get to many hits with "trademark"). Tomorrow at work I see if I may have saved it on my work computer.
 
Thanks hardheart, but no, I saw that too, but it is not the one I mean.
These two are proably the two most informative ones, but still not what I remember.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284340
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295639&page=2

But it all shows what we have already. I start doubting my memory. Maybe I read the original patent and mix the "opening" into it. For the moment I have to give up. The one that I remember seeing was also a lot older than 1997 :confused:.

Well, it is definitely a circular hole in the blade, that much is clear.
 
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