Spyderco Backs Down On Warranty@Repair

brownshoe said:
I've read this thread and been kind of sick of the sanctimonious tone of the spyderco gang. The man comes with a complaint and he gets ridicule, sarcasm, etc. The company rep questions his motives since his first post is a complaint. What's wrong with that? Isn't that one of purposes of this forum? Even if you think he was rude, didn't your mothers tell you all that politeness will always trump rudeness and can make a good situation bad.

Look at the facts. It's a Harpy G10 with steel liner. The construction was marketed at the time as the strongest knife produced by spyderco. Glesser inspected it and didn't say it was abused, just hard used and ready for retirement.

Tonyknives agrees it was hard used, but believes the lock bar should not have failed. That's a legitimate complaint for a knife specifically designed for hard use. He then posts pictures and you all ignore the obvious. Why didn't the pivot or rivets go on this knife before the lock bar? So what if it has an impact mark on the blade, why wouldn't this pop a rivit before a lock?

Spyderco still has not indicated what type of abuse made the lock fail. I sure hope the hard use of a knife designed to be tough for the working main would not cause lock bar failure. This sounds like a safety problem. Don't forget this is a premium knife designed for longshoreman, fisherman, etc.

As to the attacks in this thread, I think tonyknives has a point. Some people's sycophancy may have blinded them to the facts.
Click to expand...
You Sir, have a point! :)
Take care,
ALIass
 
Brownshoe,

I don't mind being called a sanctimonious sycophant, but I'd like to at least justify my righteous brown-nosing. The only thing we have here as any kind of "evidence" are Tony's words, Sal's words, and the pictures. Tony says the knife was used hard but not abused - he doesn't say how long he's had the knife but we assume along while. Sal says the knife's had a hard working life and had "hammer" marks. The pics show a knife that's been tried and tested but doesn't show any clear shots of the lock that's the real problem of the whole conflict. If you mix this things together, I'd say the brown-nosing is pretty reasonable. You have a hard-used knife that eventually wore out and is now unusable. Spyderco then reserves the right to fix or replace it or not. Like I said earlier, I doubt we'd be this sanctimonious and sycophantic if the pics were of a knife in good condition and with a broken lock.
 
Hi guys,

There is really no need to argue. If Tony feels that I'm wrong, he can send it back and I'll look at more closely (microscope & Rc). I made a judgement, but like anyone's judgement, it is open to question.

Brownshoe has a point, to which I refer to the comment above.

I have noticed that most here will not "brown nose" me and are more than likely willing to question me at every turn, and disagree with me. That's ok too. I know that Brownshoe has disagreed with posts in the past. That's ok. It is a forum. That's why we're here....to learn and share information.

It is important that we be civil, and kind is even better.

We've had parts break prematurely for one reason or another. We've replaced thousands of knives over the past 25 years. More often than not, it really wasn't a defect.

It seems that for most products, customers seem to understand use. There is an area between NIB and abuse. Products do get used up. A part is taxed until it fails....any part. Should that entitle the owner to a new un-used part?

In todays world of warrantees, there are many "outs"; Show a receipt, original owner only, time limits, "limited" warrantee. All because it costs money to honor one's products and many companies, I find, have their "method" of not doing so.

At Spyderco we try to be honest, fair and proper with our warrantee. Fair to the customer and fair to Spyderco.

In construction, hammers, wire cutters, putty knives, drills, tractors....do get used up.

sal

-----------------------------------------------------

Above all else, we must be fair. That is what separates us from the lower animals, isn't it?
 
Ya know, I have a Buck 450 upstairs that's been pretty beaten. 5 years, daily use at work, lots of sharpening and prying. After all of that, the blade's pretty small and the pivot's been adjusted with a hammer and Vise-Grips multiple times. Would I expect Buck to replace it after all these years if it broke? No. Would they? Maybe.

Let's say I had an Endura in the same shape. Would I expect Spyderco to replace it? Nope. Would they? Possibly.

There comes a time that breakage has to be attributed to wear and age, rather than a defect. You used it for years, it broke. Buy a new one, and be glad it lasted the many years it did.

As for being a SpyderSyncophant, I resent that. I'm a BuckSyncophant, and Spyderco, and Queen, and any company that does right by their customers. Sal's actions regarding this knife have done naught to change that.
 
The saddest part was when I saw the pics and realized it was a G10 Harpy! :( I've been trying to win one of those on ebay for years and keep getting outbid by a couple dollars. ALIass is right. You don't see too many of those around anymore.
 
Mmmh, Brownshoe,
I have thought about this for a while and I still think you are missing the point and the origin of my anger (speaking only for me). The warranty is essentially a form of insurance that protects me in case I buy a faulty knife. If somebody tries to make unreasonable warranty claims then this compares to insurance fraud and since I am tied into the same insurance it is likely to affect me in the long run. This has very little to do with brownnosing Mr. Glesser or Spyderco, but with the protection of my own interests. Of course, there is nothing wrong with trying to make a claim, but trying to FORCE a claim by posting a flaming thread I find rather unethical. Especially, if you consider the title of this thread, which implies that Spyderco BACKED DOWN on its warranty, and if Tonyknives would have read the terms of the warranty, he would have noticed that Spyderco did no such thing (as was pointed out in several replies).

I must agree with you, though, that we are all pretty much shooting in the dark. I, for one have to admit, that I have no clue how the Spyderco lockbacks are designed, and I assume you do neither. I recall that Mr. Glesser once explained that the compression locks are design to fail by distortion of the lock spring (finger, pin, however you want to call it), not by the failure of the anvil pin or the pivot. So your experience with the failure of other lock backs may not be relevant.
In the end I just find it surprising that after apparently many years of hard use, somebody is so quick and sure to pinpoint the failure of a lock to a manufacturing defect. It seems to me like somebody who drives a car for 150000 mi, has a transmission failure and tries to return his car to the dealership with the words: "....Honest! I've never abused the car, it MUST have been a manufacturing defect!!!"
 
I'll try again.

Why would a lock bar on a Harpy G10 break under use instead of failure with the handle scales, blade or pins?
 
Hi Brownshoe. I'll try again.

We regularly break our knives. When we break lockbacks, we apply enough force until something gives. Excess force will break anything.

Sometimes the lock bar breaks, either at the front, behind the male tab or farther back where the bend occurs for the lock pivot pin. Sometimes the back of the tang breaks off behind the notch. Sometimes the lock pivot bends and breaks. Sometimes the FRN yields enough to let the pin move which permits the lock to slip. Sometimes the blade pivot breaks.

If one area breaks at a lower force than is acceptable to us, we reinforce the part that broke. We are always refining and testing. We've done this enough that the actual parts that do break are all pretty close to holdng similar forces at this time.

But, it is always excessive force that breaks the part.

The exception would be if there was already a crack in the lock, which would have probably showed up sooner, or the lock was just too hard, which would usually show up sooner as well.

From the looks of the knife, it was my assumption that too much force had been applied, perhaps more than once. I would have made the same assumption if it was the tang or the pin that had broken, primarily because is was a very well used knife.

I also offered to look more closely (spend way more money to check it than the knife costs) in an effort to please the dis-satisfied customer.

There is little more that we as a company can do in this situation and still be fair to both the customer and the company.

sal
 
Tony, I hope you will consider sending the knife in again. Sal's offer keeps the door open and may pave the way for a happier ending for you. I would not turn that offer down in any negotiation.

I do agree with some of brownshoe's points tho'. I have never seen a lockback fail as well.

Hope everything works out.
 
Thanks for the reply. If I understand it now, spyerco believes that if it were a materials defect in the lockbar, the knife should have failed sooner, therefore the conclusion is abuse.
 
brownshoe said:
therefore the conclusion is abuse
Click to expand...

I don't think the intention is to call it abused. Just an 'old' knife, heavily used, and now broken beyond repair and ready for retirement, like old shoes etc.

Ted
 
JoeBob said:
Edgeseeker, that brought back memories of working at Kmart while in college (long time ago). I had a seriously upset customer that would not understand why I would not authorize a return on her defective/abused item.
I kindly pointed out to her that we didn't even sell that brand, it was a "store brand" for one of our competitors, and that the receipt she kept waving in my face wasn't from Kmart, but the store that actually sold that brand of merchandise. :eek:
She was still cursing as she left, and the small crowd she had attracted was laughing at her as she made her exit.
That kind of experience gives me some sympathy for CS reps, especially when you see this kind of crap posted as a "poor me" thread. :barf:
Click to expand...

JoeBob,
Arn't we glad we are no longer working in Customer Service :D

edgeseeker
 
brownshoe said:
Thanks for the reply. If I understand it now, spyerco believes that if it were a materials defect in the lockbar, the knife should have failed sooner, therefore the conclusion is abuse.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that his conclusion was "worn out".

One can figure that something is going to fail - an engine, a shoe, a rope, a lightbulb, a bridge... it's more a matter of "when" than "if".
A line has to be drawn somewhere between it being a failure of design/materials and when it's reached the end of it's lifespan.

Do you agree? Where would YOU draw the line?

Also, a bridge will fail sooner if trucks use it than the same bridge will if bicycles use it. It's not a matter of abuse, but how hard it has to work.
 
Wow this thread is still going. I thought I would let you guys see the original pics Tony sent me. They are HUGE but provide more detail. Being so big I will post Links. Depending on your screen res IE might auto fit these. To see the original size, hover your mouse over the picture till a expand button appears in the lower right.

Picture 1

Picture 2

Picture 3

Picture 4
 
Code: 
JLannoo]Wow this thread is still going.
My sentiments exactlly. I was hoping it would DIE :grumpy:

Sorry I'm not going to look at the photos. But thanks for posting for others. :yawn:

BTW: I don't brownose Sal either.

IMHO , it's ironic someone would send an abused product back to the mfg that made the product making unrealistic demands.

edgeseeker
 
brownshoe said:
Why would a lock bar on a Harpy G10 break under use instead of failure with the handle scales, blade or pins?
Click to expand...

I have broken several zytel handled knives and the lock bar broke before the Zytel gave way. It surprised me when it happened, it was abuse on my part, heavy prying. That being said, I think you made several valid points in your origional post in that it isn't clear why the knife was "abused".

In general, give the poster some credit. He could have been an honest guy, buying for what is most tradespeople a very expensive knife which he uses for some time and then the lock bar gives out. He sees the lifetime as being very short compared to the price of the knife and expects a new one.

It doesn't matter that the serrations are worn down, the blade scratched, the tip cracked off it. None of that should make the lock bar fail. If he of course did heavy prying or impacted the blade or lock it could have cracked which would not be a defect. At which point you don't critize the guy, you just talk about what it can do and what it can't.

I would be interested in more details on use. How was the blade used daily. Was it ever impacted or subjected to heavy prying. Have other knives been used for similar work without harm. Did the lock bar loosen or start to give after a while, or was the failure just sudden and unexpected. What exactly was being done when the bar let go?

Note that having an unreasonable expectation doesn't make you a bad guy, you could just not know enough to be reasonable. Most of the tradespeople I know would look at any knife which costs that much to be lifetime warrenty no matter what, because you can buy many tools at that price which have that warrenty (and they will lay into them aggressively).

Attacking the guy is only going to do one thing - if you make him really angry, which is what most of the above posts are going to do, he will spend the rest of his life attacking Spyderco and their products, is this really the goal you want to achieve. Just consider the impact of just one really vocal person, who tells everyone he knows, they tell everyone they know, etc. . The more angery he gets the more vocal and persistent he will be.

-Cliff
 
Good point, Cliff. I agree with you fully.

Unfortunately, when someone takes on an angry, provocative tone, people tend to respond in kind. Note the end of TonyKnives' original post, which I quote, "So spyderco warranty and quality take it and shove it".

It takes a certain level of psychological maturity and / or self-discipline to avoid being pulled in by that kind of negativity.

So, I won't knock TonyKnives, and I won't knock those that knocked TonyKnives.

Regards,
bls
 
If a guy comes in angry with the idea that Spyderco's warrenty people and thus the company as a whole is unreasonable, and then is attacked my fans of that company - congradulations you have just justified to him his viewpoint and now made it even stronger. You may drive him off the forum, so now in the future you can't be there to provide a counterpoint to any complaints he makes as you can't see them. This is how I would have responded to the guy :

"Tony, I can understand were you are coming from. It must have been quite a disappointment when you got the knife back. I have used Spyderco's folders for quite some time and have been impressed with their cutting ability durability and as well Spyderco's customer service. Knives do only last so long, if you use them really hard you can wear them out pretty quick. How long did you have the Merlin, what kinds of things did you do to it. Have you had other knives which you used for similar tasks which are still in use. It may be that your level of use is so high that you are going to have to buy new knives every couple of years or so."

Is it hard to not get angry if you are a fan of Spyderco, sure but you don't have to post, and you certainly don't have to post right then. Take some time, think about what you are trying to accomplish. It also may be better to do some of it in email as people are far less defensive in private.

-Cliff
 
Maybe about five years ago, I had a lockbar crack on a PE standard I bought NIB. The knife was never used for more than cutting office things and some plants. I think the lockbar cracked less than a few months after I bought it. In terms of usage, there were no marks on the blade, and I might not even have touched up/sharpened the blade.

There's no way I can say that I used the knife hard or abused it. It was basically not used at all.

For some days I noticed that the blade and lockbar were out of alignment, then the lockbar just popped up.

Having bought it from a dealer who had promised to take care of any problem I had, I relied upon him to get me a new one. He said he would send it back to Spyderco, and a few weeks later(I live in SEAsia), I had what appeared to be a new(?) one.

However, by that time I had lost faith in this model and gifted it away to someone who I knew would not use the knife "hard" if ever.

Despite my "lemon" PE standard, I'd like to say that I was satisfied with Spyderco's CS, and their products in general. After that, I bought another 20 or so spyderco knives and have not had any problems with them so far.

My belief is that around that period, there were some knives made with locking bars that had problems. But now the question comes to Tonyknives' Harpy. Like my PE standard, I think it has the same G-10 handle with the one side steel liner, it has the ATS-55 blade.

But my Standard was brand NIB, and hardly used at all, whereas Tonyknives' Harpy looks very well used. If his Harpy had the locking bar defect that mine had, it would have popped early on in its life, and not waited until near its end.

My belief is that his harpy's locking bar cracked from metal fatigue due to very long and very hard usage.......basically his knife lasted until it died. I'm surprised that any locking knife could take that wear and last.
 
SYK I think you may be right and wrong. I think you're right that between the Harpy and Standard they probably share similar design features if not the same parts. I think you may be wrong to suppose that just because tony's harpy didn't break early means it wasn't the same defect you had. Tony's defect may have just been less severe. I also disagree on the use the knife had. The G-10 Harpy was sold to be a hard use knife, really hard use, e.g. longshoreman, commercial fisherman, etc. The same thing with your G-10 standard. These knives were marketed by spyderco as the "beefed" up version of the original zytel or ss models. I was told by spydreco customer service in ~2000 that the g10 harpy had a thicker blade than the ss or zytel versions.
 
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