Spyderco becomes boring knife company....

trane fan · May 13, 2003

AG, I too wish that Spyderco had kept the Veile as well as the Executive, Jess Horn and some others. I tend to prefer the more traditional designs for some reason. But that is pretty much where we part company. I myself think Spyderco is innovation personified. No their designs do not appeal to everyone but that is true of any company that produces anything. I also think Sal and the Spydie folks do an outstanding job of keeping their corporate finger on the collective pulse of the knife buying/using public. They are constantly looking to provide what the public wants. For example they recently started a thread asking for input for what should be dropped in '04. How many companies care enough to do that sort of thing? I respect your opinion and your right to have it. Take care.

bakmr · May 13, 2003

Originally posted by yog

Richardallen - Unfortunately it is becoming a sad fact that Lockable blades are increasingly being legislated against in parts of Europe. Denmark has banned all lockable blades, even those on Leatherman multi-tools, and until the UK law changed to give Police looser and wider powers of dicression concerning edged and pointed tools, lockable knives had a much stricter definition under law.

That's only partially true. Leatherman continues to sell multi-tools with locking blades in Denmark. They do frown on one-handers there, though, so the Waves we ship to Denmark have no thumb holes in the blades. Switzerland has been making noises, as yog hinted at, that would result in similar problems, but lately the wind appears to have shifted in a more positive direction.

Kublai · May 13, 2003

Interesting thread... much of what needs to be said has already been posted. But I agree that Spyderco is absolutely the most innovative production knife company...period. A brief history lesson will yield the thumb hole opener and let's not forget the pocket clip. Who introduced these industry standards to the market? Sal Glesser and Spyderco. How about the triple point serrated blade on folders? Everyone makes them but once again, who introduced them to the industry?

As far as I can tell, Spyderco's success is heavily reliant on user input ( I don't see any other cutlery industry CEO's who consistently poll forumites for design and function input). Numerous modifications have been made on pre-existing models not only as a result of this, but also because Spyderco seems to be persistently dedicated to their research and development dept. As a result, it takes them much longer to release a new model so that all the quirks are smoothed out.

As for lack of new models and designs, this perception seems to be based on a lack of information. In the past year or so, many models have been released: Fred Perrin fixed blade, the SPOT, the Ronin, the Temperance series, Lum fixed blade, ATR and so on.

Many Spyderco in - house designs are so creative and unique in the knife industry that I find it implausible that they could be accused of shortcomings in this field. This is one company that always strikes me as truly artistic in terms of design innovation.

As a final note regarding distribution and production, they are a very small company. And because of this, I think that quality, strong R&D and innovative design are fundamental elements of Spyderco - all of which could easily be lost in a bigger production facility.

ThinkOfTheChildren · May 13, 2003

Originally posted by AG
...There is NO excuse to discontinue the ONLY good looking Spyderco ever made - Howard Viele C42...

You're right. If sales of a product fail to meet a company's desire, but you like that product, they should be forced to keep selling it.

Decisions on new products are strange at times (can you spell DO-DO) ?

I can't wait for the DoDo. I know that others are excited as well. Of course, some think it's ridiculous. It's all personal preference.

Custom collaborations - heard of any new interesting ones ? tell me - I'll be more than glad to hear.

Bob Lum Tanto
Perrin bowie
Janich/Snody Ronin

The only worthwhile spydies are the oldies

Again, your opinion. I'm still waiting for some good evidence that Spyderco is facing the social rejection that you're pointing to.

SPYDERCO is NOT listening to their hard core clients

Look, their hardcore clients don't represent the general public. I can't even count the number of hard working men I've seen carrying Spydies. I bet my entire life savings that not a single one of them visits these forums

they are dream sleeping thinking of the general public (who doesn't care about their new small designs)

Oh, wow, you talked to the entire general public that buys Spydercos? That's cool that you speak for all of them like that. Good of you to know what they're all interested in.

so they discontinue the serious "old" models in favor of the less successful smaller ones

Just because you like the discontinued models, doesn't mean that they were offering Spyderco enough at the time of their drop from the product line. Spyderco is a business. If they keep models around that don't sell just because a fringe group likes them, they won't be around to ever bring us anything again.

if they make more money ? I do not know but I guess not

You guess not? Do yourself a favor and don't bring factors into an argument of which you have absolutely no knowledge.

Spyderco listens to their customers more than most companies I know of. And not just trivial issues like the color of sprint run knives but the active search of customer feedback and improvement of products.

yog · May 13, 2003

Hi Bakmr, thanks for correcting my misconception.
I probably should have phrased it "I was told be a Danish guy ...." Just because you live in a country doesn't neccessarily make you an authority on it's laws

I know some laws in my country (UK) are particularly vague in order to put the burden of proof onto the individual

numberthree · May 13, 2003

There's not another company from which the discerning knife-buyer can obtain so many relatively low cost folders in premium steels. Spyderco is the top of the industry in my opinion. They have originality, quality, variety, and best of all, they're nice guys and gals...

KBR · May 13, 2003

Spyderco becomes boring knife company....

ROTFLMFAO!!!

I guess that you haven't seen the 2003 Spyderco catalog, AG. You should call up Spyderco and request one, just so you'll see how "boring" this company has become. I don't have anything against someone posting their own opinion about something, but your post appears to be more of a cry and moan session.

Go away, troll. :yawn:

u812 · May 14, 2003

I must say that I am not interested in alot of the new ones comeing out.The DoDo just doesn't do anything for me.Others will love them,Im sure.IMHO many great designs have been drop to bring out lesser designs.I also think that some variations should be done on existing models.G10 Cricket,colored Military,Black g10 Native,and G10 Vesuvious to name a few.

PWork · May 14, 2003

I don't understand how anyone can call Spyderco boring.
I would like to see some straighter, less "ergonomic" designs come out. But that's just me. One voice (usually talking to myself) in a sea of many.

Paul

JamesA · May 14, 2003

Originally posted by AG
peopel who are extremely concerned with being caught with .5" larger than legal blade are not spyderco customers - these guys buy their asian fakes.

I was going to go through and point by point address your argument, but as you've given me absolutely no reason to care about your opinion -- you haven't given any evidence other than that you think the new Spydercos are ugly and small knives are stupid -- I won't bother.

But I just have to know, out of where did you pull /this/ idea, the quoted one? Did you seriously mean to write that? You really think that Spyderco customers don't care about staying legal? And, even more unbelievably, you think that people who buy asian fakes know what the knife laws /are/, much less care about them?

AG · May 14, 2003

Thank you all for the feedback - I have learned alot from this and that what is Bladeforums all about. I am glad this hasn't turned into a flame war and this shows the level of people here.

1. Regarding my language and phrasing - please forgive me as english is not my mother tongue - As some noticed I am from ISRAEL so maybe some of the terms I used sounded too harsh for you - I had no intention to do so - so please - I only intended to share my views and get your welcome feedback.

2. in regards to what the Architect posted:

a) "...(Benchmade)the quality of their carbon fiber work is very poor. I have had the 770 and 940 in carbon fiber, but both were so poorly finished I was embarrased to keep them..."

Now this amazes me ! BM quality poor ? I have never seen anything but perfection from BM - thier 770/940 are masterpieces - I find it hard to believe but it is still possible that you got a defective piece.

Listen to what others here had to say about the ever declining qualiy coming out of golden.

b) "...Since I don't carry any aluminum handled knives, I am waiting for them (BM) to come out with Titanium versions which I understand they may make someday...."

May have someday ? Have you been sleeping in the last 3 year or so ? let me refresh your memory: http://store.knifecenter.com/pgi-ProductSpec?BM750S
Pinnacle BM750 - entire frame made of titanium (this is now discontinued) many other models have CF, zytel, G10, Stainless steel, MOP so I see no real point in your argument.

c) "...I agree that CRKT has a lot of interesting designs - but their focus is on low-cost knives. Their "upgrade" steel is AUS-8..."

You are probably right and CRKT have less steel options than BM or Spyderco - their strong point is designs and custom collaborations and they seem to hit thier target with amazing precision.

I must correct you though that their premium steel , as seen on their Viele Wasp is AUS 118 - its properties can be seen here: http://www.crkt.com/steelfct.html

d) "... (CRKT) Everything is beadblast to keep cost down..."
Wrong again - they offer most of their knoves with a black titanium nitride non-reflective coating- something that spyderco rarely does.

e) "...(CRKT) All of their folders utilize Zytel scales...."
Wake up man and have a look and www.CRKT.com - you might discover that few years have passed since you last lay your eyes on their product catalog.

G10 - Viele WASP - http://www.crkt.com/vielwasp.html

nickel chrome plated zinc alloy scales - 14 Summit - http://www.crkt.com/14ksummt.html

precision CNC machined from 6061 T6 aluminum, hard anodized - CRAWFORD/KASPER PROFESSIONAL - http://www.crkt.com/ckpro.html

6061 T6 hard anodized charcoal gray aluminum - M16 - http://www.crkt.com/m16alumn.html

G10 - M18 - http://www.crkt.com/m18.html

You said you like Ti so much so this one is just for you - 6AL4V titanium - M16 Ti - http://www.crkt.com/m16titan.html

And I haven't posted all of their Non-zytel models here - so I guess you really do not know CRKT - next time - try not talking about a knife company you know very little of.

I hope this educates some of us here

Sergiusz Mitin · May 14, 2003

Very interesting thread, just lets dont make it awkward claiming as troll someone who has different opinion and argues it quite strongly, OK?

I have pretty mixed feelings reading this thread. I like some SPYDERCO knives a lot, their Military, Delica, Ti-Salsa, Bob Lum Chinese, Peter Herbst, Kiwi folders, Bill Moran Featherweight and Fred Perrin fixed blades are my among strong favorites and I carry and use them quite frequently. I like Calypso Jr. Ltw. very much, however I dont use it as long as it is discontinued and couldnt be replaced if I would lose or break it. The same with the Starmate. My 11-years old son has Dragonfly Lightweight, likes it a lot, carries it daily and uses for paper cutting, pencil sharpening, wood whittling and another his cutting tasks. On the other hand, some other SPYDERCO models look pretty strange for me or, saying diplomatically, they seem too specialized to make any good all around knives for common and peaceful daily tasks. Civilian, Gunting, discontinued Massad Ayoob, Bob Lum Tanto are just some examples. There are also plenty of models what Im experiencing neutrally. No doubts they are well designed and equally well made knives, simply they dont fit my needs and likings or/and dont match my particular preferences.
Exactly the same picture would concern each other knife manufacturer they all make knives what I like, dislike or take neutrally. The difference is in proportion between these matters and in feeling amplitude between liking and disliking. I must say honestly that in case of SPYDERCO knives this amplitude is really very wide.
And no one manufacturer makes the ideal knife, ideal for me of course.

As to small knives. IMO in the most of daily situations in urban environment 2-2,5-inched blade is quite enough for what we really need from our knife. The issue is the suitably small handle what usually cant provide any sure grip and sometimes could make too small knife quite dangerous for its user. Because even 2-inched blade is more than enough to cause pretty serious injure...
So SPYDERCO with their little-big knife conception simply cowers this requirement for the knife what is small enough to be legal everywhere and handles enough surely to perform daily cutting tasks with no worry about making harm to yourself. Not more, not less.

Here, in Europe, there are pretty easy to find optimal, universal user knives from SPYDERCO production line and somewhat difficult to obtain their eccentricities. No wonder, market decides, the eccentricities sell rarely and it is no sense to hold them on the stock continuously.

I also cant agree with Wayne about his mentioned leading companies. They make pretty exaggerated knives in limited quantities and sell them in the price range what overage user rather cant or dont want to accept. Calling them leaders would be the same as to say that Lamborgini or Porshe lead car industry.

Some matters to correct. Israel is located in Asia, not in Europe.
There are very few European countries where lockable blades would be forbidden at all, nothing aside from United Kingdom comes into my head just at the moment. Yes, there are some countries where lockable one-hand openers are not welcome if their blades are longer than 2 inches, Switzerland for example. At the rest of Europe as to my knowledge you would be quite well with Delica or Salsa everywhere, behaving yourself suitably of course.

Kublai · May 14, 2003

I have much respect for CRKT, but can one really consider Spyderco and CRKT on the same level? CRKT caters to a lower end user group (i.e. less expensive) which is reflected in their production methods, materials and cost. They make great knives at a great price and have numerous designs by great makers such as Carson, Hammond, and Ryan. But so does Spyderco: Moran, Lum, Terzuola, Walker, Perrin, Goddard, Keating (designer)... to name a few. The primary difference is that Spyderco either manufacturers these models in their Golden facility in the USA with the latest steels and materials or they have them produced in what is commonly known as one of the blade producing capitals of the world, Seki. It seems that CRKT is a few steps behind Spyderco in these 2 respects.

allenC · May 14, 2003

I certainly would not call Spyderco boring, but something seems to have changed and not for the better.
It's very difficult to put my finger on, but somehow the old "Spyderco magic" just is'nt there.

Without a doubt Spyderco makes many interesting knives and has taken alot of risks to explore new directions, but I think maybe the wrong direction.
I'm sure that I'm in the minority when I say this, but the new Spydercos don't interest me much. And by "new" I mean a totally new knife--I don't consider the Carbon Fiber Police or the Carbon Fiber Delica to really be a "new" knife.

The only new knife that I'm really looking forward to is the ATR.

BTW, If I had to pick which companies were leading the knife industry right now, it would have to be Benchmade and CRKT.
Every Benchmade I have held had excellent fit and finish and top-notch materials.
The G-10 was certainly as nice as the G-10 on my Spyderco Police model.

And the Axis-lock is awesome!
Spyderco has not come up with anything that competes with the Axis-lock except the Ball-bearing lock, and I think it is only available on one model right now?

And the Griptilian series has lowered the price for entry level buyers to bring them over to Benchmade.

As for CRKT...the ONLY thing holding them back is their nearly total use of the liner-lock.
But if CRKT ever developes something like Benchmade's Axis-lock or SOG's Arc-Lock...look out!

Just my opinion,
Allen.

baraqyal · May 14, 2003

Originally posted by AG

And I haven't posted all of their Non-zytel models here - so I guess you really do not know CRKT - next time - try not talking about a knife company you know very little of.

AG,
You complain about Spyderco becoming a "boring company" and your example of a not-boring company is CRKT?

Let's talk innovation. Which current designs from CRKT are not Custom collaborations?

1) 14k summit series
2) The Mo'Skeeter
3) The Wrangler

Out of 50 designs showing on this page, 3 are CRKT "original" designs.

For having a "strong point of designs" they don't seem to produce many originals.

You make a point of how high tech their steel is getting, even using the much praised AUS 118.

And, you give such great examples of high tech handles as "nickel chrome plated zinc alloy scales" (WOW!), 6061 T6 hard anodized charcoal gray aluminum (Again, WOW!), G-10 on the M18 series (which are just inlays, BTW), and even Titanium on their $125-150 MSRP M16Ti (which includes the "upgrade steel" of AUS 8 - for $125!)

Do you have any idea why CRKT doesn't offer many satin finish blades? You "correct" Architect by saying they offer Black TiNI - "something Spyderco rarely offers". Why do you think Spyderco doesn't offer blade coatings?

How many designs does CRKT make with VG-10? ATS-34? S30V?

How many innovations have they produced on their own?

Something to think about, before you "educate" us some more.

-- Rob

richardallen · May 14, 2003

apart from denmark, you shouldn't run into problems with locking blades in europe. in fact, i believe some countries here are way more open towards those knifes then some states in the usa. at least i haven't heard of laws that dont allow concealed carry.
oh yeah, there's the UK as well, but for one they're not really europe, and for two they got some weird laws from the beginning.

back to the topic - spydero had some innovations lately, although i didn't like any of them - neither dodo, nor perrin fixed, nor kiwi, hawk or rescue assist really appealed to me, while really nice knifes where discontinued [shabaria, police g10, chinook I,..]

regards, cheez

Kublai · May 14, 2003

It's interesting to see that some people think Spyderco has recently taken the unfavored path. Of course, this or the opposing viewpoint is entirley subjective, so my point is not to argue this topic.

I feel that Spyderco has really taken great strides in developing their line. In particular, the fixed blade series. Every model is of top notch construction/ design, unique, and very user oriented in terms of size, grind and carry (except the Lum leather sheath). In addition to this, the development of the MBC line is somewhat unprecedented - the concept of big/little knives and the idea of promoting bladed martial arts tools in a productive, legal -friendly way.

Rex G · May 14, 2003

I just wanted to take a moment to defend the Gunting, which some may think is too specialized. Pull up a photo of the Gunting, and take an index card or other straight-edged object, and cover the ramp only, leaving the rest of the knife visible. The Gunting's blade, except for the ramp, is quite conventional. The Gunting would still be my EDC if it did not have the ramp, because the handle is "just right" for me. It was very courageous and innovative of Spyderco, IMHO, to release the Gunting, because of its public perception as a specialty blade. In reality, for those, like me, who prefer to use a sheath anyway, the Gunting is a wonderful EDC. (As discussed before on this forum, the Gunting is best carried in a sheath/holster.)

Midget · May 14, 2003

I must say, I really, really, like this thread.

It's interesting to see the topic sort of "evolve" into CRKT. I'm very anxious to see how Mr. Glesser responds to our various opinions.

But here's my bean on CRKT:
I used to hate CRKT. Hate it, hate it, hate it. I even wrote them some hate e-mail about a year ago, telling them I wasted my money, they ripped me off, etc.

I take it all back. I owe them an apology.

Baraqyal,
I can't see why you consider CRKT is "unoriginal." Who is CRKT? Probably just a bunch of machinists. Some people in marketing, some people in management, etc. They leave it up to custom knifemakers, i.e., people who know very well what they are doing, to make designs for them. They are price pointed, sold, and frankly, I love it. Not to say Spyderco does not have it's custom collaberations, but I am saying that CRKT's use of custom designers does not put them to fault.

And my second arguement, and this is opinion. We are knifenuts, some of us moreso than others. How often, truthfully, do you pick up your sharpmaker? For me, averaging once a week. I used to HATE CRKT, because of their silly-putty AUS6/AUS8. Not that I have a problem with the steel (I actually prefer AUS8, GIN1, 440C over ATS55/34, S30V), but maybe their heat treat was terrible.
And then I grew up. For some, yes, exotic steel is a MUST. For some, that dull blade will get them killed in the jungles. But for me, using my sharpmaker as frequently as I do, I could give a hell what my blade is. I cut paper, boxes, packages, plastic. Honestly, are you THAT hardcore, that AUS8 to ATS55 will defeat you? My aus8 dragonfly has stood the test of time to my coworker's ats55delica, and both are going strong.

AllenC,
CRKT did develop an axis lock clone. It's the "DOG" lock, and it's on one of their newer models, rightly named, the "DOG."
http://www.crkt.com/dog.html
You are right, however, sole usage of the linerlock/tip down carry, is definately holding them back. God, I hate linerlocks.

-----------------------------------------------------

BUT, I would VERY much like to take the opportunity to bringing this thread back to topic.

Is Spyderco declining in the principles that we ELU's hold so dear?

Let's get some input from the "big man" and friends from the factory.

Sal Glesser · May 14, 2003

Very interesting thread.

First of all, I really appreciate the fact that there is a format where such discusion is possible on a mature responsible and very knowledgeable level. Even if everyone doesn't know all there is, the knowledge level of the industry in general is very high here.

2ndly, I would also like to say that I appreciate all of the support I've seen here.

There are many really good knife companies. Some are better yesterday, today or tomorrow. Benchmade, CRKT, Cold Steel, SOG, etc. Worthy competition to be sure. Thaty's what makes it interesting.

AG, What's new and interesting is certainly a matter of opinion as "different strokes for different folks" cerainly is alive and active in the knife industry.

To say that Spyderco is going in the "wrong" direction somehow implies that your own opinions are the "right" direction for all. My guess is that it was just a poor choice of words.

Since the dialectic is open, let me share a few thoughts with you;

The Howard Viele design was a breakthrough in knife beauty. It was very well made with the best materials. If was more of a "collect, play with and show" piece, than a "take to the construction site for work" piece. It sold well and was well received.

We were doing our normal "CQI" thing and upgrading the model. We had finished the retool (eccentric pivot, concave arc ramp, VG-10,etc) about the same time CRKT came out with the much less expensive (and IMO lower quality) version of their Howard Viele design. Howard, always the gentleman, had told us of his collaboration with CRKT and certainly everything was on the up and up.

However, the CRKT version affected the sales of the Spyderco version to the point where it did not pay to keep the model in the line.

Howard wrote us a very nice letter thanking us for a very nice experience. We may in the future build another Viele design. It depends on the design.

As mentioned, Spyderco is a business and the number of low volume pieces that we can maintain is limited. Especially when the low volume is declining.

It is interesting to note that different countries "in general" have very different opinions as to what we should keep and disco. Israel, the Eastern European countries and Southern African countries prefer the larger models and have little interest in the smaller models. the UK, Scandinavia, Western Europe have less interest in the larger models and prefer the smaller models. Texans like big knives and New Englanders like small knives.

We listen. But we rally must listen to a broad variety of desires. Just look at the thread on the 2004 survey and you will see quite a variety of opinions as to what we should keep and disco. Naturally, most are just expressing their opinions of what they like. We, on the other hand must determine from all of the "likes", what will sell.

We are different from Benchmade, CRKT, etc, to be sure. We each offer our own "niche". Ours is Reliable high performance. "Cool" is relly not a factor in our product line. I'm sure ther are some things that we make that you will like, and some you won't.

I personally appreciate your taking the time to express your opinion.

sal