Spyderco becomes boring knife company....

[JamesA]

Kukri4302,

You seem very knowledgable about the Gunting. I've noticed that calling it the "G" is usually a good sign that the writer's part of Bram's inner circle, or awfully close.

So I have a question regarding the folowing:

Originally posted by Kukri4302
Boring??Sal gave the Gunting a chance,no-one else did,Bram also acknowledges this on his tapes Gunting,not very inovative!

No one else did? How come you're ignoring REKAT here? Is there something relevent about that situation that I don't know?

James

 

[Westicle]

Just to comment on brownshoes comments and some others followup as they did not address what I believe Sal Glesser's and spyderco's intentions with the save and serve knives like Police, matriarch, civilian and gunting (but to name a few)

none of the above knives are designed to instigate a fight, they are not made as provacation weapons.

they are made to save your life in a last ditch effort to make your attacker back off and rethink "is it worth it to attack you"..... no where is spyderco's literature does it say these blades are meant for an attack knife. The endura or delica would be far superior as an attack knife, and these are classed as general purpose blades.

The gunting wwas brought out as a less lethal option throught the use of pressure points and nerve endings , with the blade as a back up option if the less lethal does not work.

with any self defense knife you have to follow a scale of escalation and apply appropriate level of response to the threat presented to you.... robber is empty handed then open fist strikes or less lethal MBC could come into play. in that same situation with someone who is not trained in MBC or for that matter not strong enough to pose much of an empty handed threat to the attacker then the escalation comes into play and a defensive weapon is called for.

take the matriarch for example, from what I understand it was designed as a knife to be used by a woman in a rape situation.... it is made to slash the attcker wherever the woman can reach and its razor sharp point and hawkbill blade offers alot of penetration and blade surface for a person inexperienced or untrained in MBC or even basic bladecraft.

The knife is the only weapon that is available to all in north america (including canada) that can save your life if you have the mind to use it. very little training is need with the civilian and matriach to provide a very good defensive wepaon that in itself is less lethal..... it is meant to slash your attacker and give you a chance to run.

 

[curious2003]

I agree that marketing knives for use on other humans is not great considering history where the genral public tends to be easily swayed by erroneous perceptions.

The name "martial bladecraft" itself does not help this either.

Many illegal weapons such as nunchuks are not really any MORE dangerous than others but the reason they are outlawed is because the public at large and politicians believe that they are more sinister.

The same thing happened with balisongs. Balisongs were martial art influenced weapons and also for show. Most criminals would rather have a one hand opener with a thumbstud or hole rather than a blade that had to be more complicatedly manipulated to open. Yet perception was the key to its bad reputation.

Now with people being paranoid regarding weapons and especially knives after 9/11, so paranoid that even swiss army knife ads are complained about on airlines when they are merely tools, what impact (of the negative sort) will knives marketed as the gunting have?

it's hard to change what people think. it's especially hard to change laws once enacted. it's even harder to change laws where the only ppl who care are a minority group (such as knife lovers vs. the larger public who would rather see knives banned).

if anything should be marketed now that is knife-related, it should be marketed as HARMLESS as possible. To further remove the association of knives with violence, and NOT the opposite in enforcing that view. Spydies in movies already have a certain context associated with them (i.e. Hannibal Lector ), without having to also be seen like that in the real world.

 

[The General]

Originally posted by Copis
Troll?

Yeah, I remember when the General was asking makers for free knives for his "tests" :footinmou

Bill

Nah, I won't even dignify that "comment". Sticks and stones and all that. I'm older and wiser now. Let the past stay in the past.

 

[jim_l_clifton]

James A,
I'm at my office(Kukri4802 at home laptop)You are right ! REKAT was first with the ESCALATER!!I have ONE & carried it! Inner circle,no ,just a student,Bram & REKAT?? Don't know full details,don't think anyone does! Do know that the Spydie G is better than the REKAT'S,got both & have used both !You still in Fl.?? I'm in Miami, get up your way now & then,maybe we can have some coffee sometime??
jim

 

[marty123]

Spyderco boring? - no.
Spyderco is, of course, the most interesting of knife companies, always on the bleeding edge.

 

[Copis]

"Let the past stay in the past."


General,

In order to understand the present and attempt to predict the future, we must examine the past...

Bill

 

[lunumbra]

Originally posted by brownshoe
I do not like the big handle short blade concept. I like the handle on the Lil Temperance, but why have such a big knife in my pocket with such a small blade?

I see your point, but as a law abiding citizen with big hands, I like having a variety of blades that I can legally carry without worrying about the knife slipping out of my hand. I don't like a lot of the ergonomics in Spyderco designs, but they have a large enough selection that I have found and bought three different designs that I do like. Thank you Spyderco

I hate the MBC line. I don't think knives, particularly folders, should be marketed as weapons.

Do you think folders shouldn't be marketed as weapons because of reliabilty issues with the locks? Your right, in that you are taking a risk using a folder that "might" fail. But in today's legal climate, carrying a fixed blade is even more likely to put you in the back of a police car, even if it's legal. Your still more likely to spend the day at the station.

I believe Bram is full of it with his "non-lethal" patter. You pull a knife, you've crossed a legal barrier into armed combat irrespective if the knife can be used as a non-leathal weapon.

What is your opinion of other non-lethal weapons? Pocket sticks and the like? If someone used something like that, where do they stand legally, in your opinion?

With the MBC line, I think Spyderco could be opening themselves to a losing lawsuit given the right county and jury. I think Spyderco has made mistake with purpose built martial arts knives. I think it does the knife collecting community a disservice. I think their past practice of having knives that can be used for defense (or offense) in their line but not marketed directly as weapons (e.g. Civilian, Endura, Perrin) is the best approach. The last thing in the post 911 world, knife collectors need, is direct marketing of folders, particularly small folders, as "martial blades" i.e. weapons.

True, Spyderco could suffer, but it's not likely. Rarely do lawsuits involving products rarely involve the manufacture of the product. They almost always focus on the irresponsible use. If Spyderco stops marketing using the "defensive" and "MBC" nomenclature, how do we, the consumers, to know which designs are built for the particular rigors of a self defense situation?

Where is the Spyderco BIG folder? I believe the Police is the only one over 4" and not by much. This is a hole in the line that needs to be filled with at least two new choices. The Police design has gray hair.

legally, how many people can carry a large folder? Most people who live in a large city won't be able to. The Police is an oldy, but a goody! I do think Spyderco could do with a couple of designs in that size range, but not larger.

Lunumbra

 

[Westicle]

Originally posted by lunumbra
legally, how many people can carry a large folder? Most people who live in a large city won't be able to. The Police is an oldy, but a goody! I do think Spyderco could do with a couple of designs in that size range, but not larger.

Lunumbra

All of canada can have the bigger blade and frankly I like big blades and big handles.... I am a large bastard with big hands so the bigger the better. My current fav. is Camillus Cuda Maxx Line with 5.5" blades.

My favorite spydies include the large rescue's.... Military and civilian. they are the perfect size.

Bring out more big knives sal.... don;t be scared

 

[lunumbra]

Cool! I'm moving to Canada!

 

[Westicle]

Originally posted by lunumbra
Cool! I'm moving to Canada!

Sorry to get your hopes up, but here they are considered "tools"... not self defence weapons.... yes sir officer

but there is no restriction on blade length of tools....

 

[brownshoe]

Lunumbra,

My problem with knives marketed as weapons is two fold. First I think it gives the wrong public impression. I'd prefer society to think my knife is a tool not a weapon. In the past, this was the Spyderco position...knives are tools. Second, many places have ambiguous concealed carry laws. A blade marketed as a weapon could easily be leagally considered a concealed weopon when in a pocket, or covered by a t-shirt, etc. Police are now allowed to search w/o cause purely for their own protection. You could be carrying a knife as a tool which instantly turns into a felony concealed weapon. This applies to pocket sticks, etc., but probably not to your tire pressure guage, or in the old days, a roll of dimes for the phone. Just like tools in the wrong situation become burglar tools. I think Spyderco can market on lock strength and ability to take abuse (e.g. Endura) w/o calling it a martial arts weapon.

The legal risk to Spyderco can come from many areas. The failed lock is one arena. The failed to open could be another. One more would be someone buys a Chinook thinking its a utility knife but is successfully prosecuted for carrying a concealed weapon based upon their advertising. Finally, there are very little or no legal restrictions on the sale of knives to minors, criminals or the insane. There could be some type of negligence claim.

 

[Westicle]

brwonshoe... frankly I don't care about your sensibilities. If spyderco wasn't so honest with thier marketing what knife would you buy ?

Knives are weapons, plain and simple.... the cops will call your swiss army knife a wepon if they want to because frankly it is as deadly as any other knife.

a knife is a knife is a knife..... they all do the same thing with nearly identical results. they cut.

Spyderco has marketed thier SAS knives not as weapons but as tools to help you protect yourself, you dont like then move on to another knife make, your decision is your's alone on what you want to do to protect yourself and your loved ones.

Me I will pack the meanest, baddest looking knife just on the hopes that if I do have to use it defensivly that the bad guy will take a look at it and the resolve in my eyes that he is going to be the one on the ground and not me and will run away scared like a little girl (sort of like your little girl cry "but it's a weapon")

 

[brownshoe]

Westicle, save and serve is not the same thing as Martial Blade Craft. They are product lines that some may think overlap, but they are different. For example, the rescue is a Save and Serve, as is the Police, but neither I believe is a martial blade craft. You may not care how a knife is marketed, but the court system in US is not the same as in the northland. Aliens with weapons are no longer welcome in the US, best stay in the northland.

 

[Westicle]

Originally posted by brownshoe
Westicle, save and serve is not the same thing as Martial Blade Craft. They are product lines that some may think overlap, but they are different. For example, the rescue is a Save and Serve, as is the Police, but neither I believe is a martial blade craft. You may not care how a knife is marketed, but the court system in US is not the same as in the northland. Aliens with weapons are no longer welcome in the US, best stay in the northland.

Thanks for the advice, on a side note I would suggest you DO move up here since you seem to be a little liberal weinie.... you and Jean Chrétien would get along great.... maybe think up some more stupid laws or something together (BUT IT's FOR THE CHILDREN.... )

 

[brownshoe]

Thanks for insults Mr. Westicle, you can always be counted on to keep a person humble. Many years ago I lived in VT., your behavior never ceases to remind me why some native vermonters are prejudiced against canadians. Since you're interested, I am an indpendent, thus consertive on some issues (e.g., weapons, state's rights) and liberal on others (abortion, tax the rich at a higher rate) who respects anyone's right to bear arms, just don't mistake my legal tool for an illegal weapon.

Proud to be an human animal.

 

[Westicle]

so your saying you support the Human right for a human to defend themselves but your denying us the tools to do it.... your mincing words when you say "martial blade craft" and "weapon", they are all tools that with the right attitude will save your life.

You obsess over the words and yet you don't see the forest for the tree's..... not every person is a killing machine with a knife, and not every knife is a weapon in the hands of a person unwilling to use it, it is useless.

What if I told you guns where meant to kill people.... would you want the companies to market them different ?

 

[RARanney]

I couldn't disagree more with the initial post. I see one new style after the other from Spyderco, including new lock styles. They even update old favorites to keep them modern looking. I've also been fortunate enough to see Sal's briefcase of protos, and went away thinking how unique and innovative the new models are. They are even coming out with a balisong, and it is unique even for a balisong. I am hard pressed to understand how anyone could have a perspective so diametrically opposed to what the reality of things seems to be. To each his own.

 

[lunumbra]

Brownshoe,
Shouldn't the determination of what is a weapon be based on the law? Not on manufacture's advertising. If a lawyer tries to use advertising as a basis of legal status, I think they would be rebuted quite easily by the defending lawyer, and probably turned into a lawyer's barroom joke.

Lawsuit's due to failure could happen regardless of the classification by the manufacture. Though I see your point on the rest of the situations you suggested.

Are pocket sticks illegal in your area? Because they are not here in NYC. Though they are restricted in some places. (ballparks, airports, etc.)

Lunumbra

 

[NGK-Webmaster]

Had to dtick my 2 cents in:

d) "... (CRKT) Everything is beadblast to keep cost down...they offer most of their knoves with a black titanium nitride non-reflective coating- something that spyderco rarely does."

Spyderco does not need the protective coatings that CRKT knives do because Spyderco uses good steel's, CRKT uses those coatings to cover up cheap steels, it's cheaper than using good steel.

As far as Benchmade knives: They make some great knives, but they tend to make 50 versions of the same knife, just rehash whats already out with a diff color handle and call it a Limited Edition. Half the BM line looks like the same knife til you get up close to them trust me I see them all sitting around more than most people do. The Spyderco knives you can tell every one apart at a glance. When you pick up most of those "silly" looking Spyderco's they feel awesome! and work hard.

I don't care much for the way Spyderco does carbon fiber handles it's too slick for me, Benchmades carbon fiber handles are too dull I think William Henry makes the bst CF handles out as far as looks. But hey no ones perfect. Spyderco uses G-10 quite a bit now and that is one of the best handle materials made. Spyderco has a Titanium Salsa out and the ATR is soon to be coming with Ti handles so the materials are there.

what I think in a nutshell: everyone likes different kinds of knives if they didnt there would be one knife company making one knife and everyone would have it. I don't care for Strider knives, I think they are overpriced for the materials and they designs but thats just me, One of my best friends loves them and they work for him I don't make fun of him or Strider knives because I don't like them so hey why should you. If you don't like something don't buy it, don't look at it.....Find what you like and be happy with that.