Spyderco Endura 4 or Benchmade 710

[Rogco]

I think it's illegal to carry a concealed weapon in Indiana, but knives in pockets aren't concealed...

I prefer the waved Endura, just cause it feels better to me. Having said that, the 710 is a hell of a knife, no way round it. Someone above already said it best, every member on the forum will have a different opinion on knives, and they're all right (well, almost all )
Roger

 

[allenC]

You need "probable" cause to "search" someone but I believe you only need
"reasonable suspicion" to do a "pat down".

That still does not allow a cop to stop people at random and pat them down.
The cop would be facing a police harassment charge in the blink of an eye.

A supreme court decision in the late 1990s indicated that a police officer can search for weapons w/o the previous need to determine probably cause related to an arrest for a misdemeanor or felony.

Yes, if the cop is arresting you then they will certainly pat you down for weapons.
But again, this ruling does not in any way give police the authority to randomly search anyone.

The only cause the officer needs is "personal safety" and this can be applied by the officer before they even question you or applied as a matter of policy.

Not true.

For example, that's why on drunk stops as a matter of policy they can remove you from the car and "pat you down" for weapons before they question you or give you a sobriety test.

Again, not true.
Of course any cop can frisk you or search you...but that does not mean that it is a legal frisk or a legal search.
Courts dismiss cases everyday where cops did not follow proper procedure.

Your kidding yourself if you think there is a legitimate purpose for the wave other than as a weapon.

I think that getting a knife opened quickly for any cutting reason is a "legitimate purpose".
And I think that a court would see it the same.

A one-hand or assisted opener knife would get your knife open quick enough for any emergency. The wave brings your knife out of the pocket, open and ready for use as a weapon...just like a switchblade.

Sometimes, speed is the greatest factor in an rescue...not too long ago I "X-rayed" a guy who had his hand pulled into a grinding machine.
His shirt sleeve got snagged and then it pulled his hand in.
He had two fingers crushed before a coworker could get his knife out and cut the shirt.
I think the wave feature would have been of great assistance in this case, and maybe had saved the guy his fingers.
And if you think the wave is "just like a switchblade", then you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Good post, Allen!:thumbup:

Brownshoe,
Are you still going at it, trying to assert that a "wave" feature makes a knife a weapon?

Glesser, you're mixing your apples and oranges. Just like 3guardsmen and his cars. The axis lock was not designed as an integral part of a weapon like the wave. The axis lock is a lock, the wave is an opening feature designed for quick deployment for use of a knife as a weapon not a tool. That's what emerson has said and that's why the users of the feature buy it.

Are you serious? Dude, do you really claim to know the intent of every purchaser of a waved knife? That is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen written! How many studies and surveys have you conducted on the topic of why knife buyers buy knives with certain features? I bought my first waved knife because I thought it (the wave) was a cool bottle-opener feature. Let's see your data to back up your assertion!

Remember, their are a lot of laws that depend upon the intended purpose of the knife as to whether or not it is classified as a weapon.

The Benchmade's intended purpose is for use as a tool. A knife with the wave's intended purpose is as a weapon. If not as a weapon, why not buy a regular endura, it opens pretty quick with the hole.

Once again, dude, the waved knife opens quicker and with less hassle than using a nail-nick, Spyder-hole, or thumb-stud! How many times does this have to be explained to you? A knife that opens quicker and requires less manipulation is advantageous when faced with any situation that is time-critical, be it cutting piece of cable that you are stuck to, cutting a safety belt that is restricting your mobility or that of someone else, or any other scenario that you could possibly find yourself or someone who needs help in.

As to the rather silly question you asked about why one wouldn't buy a regular Endura over the waved one, A fixed-blade knife is probably equally as quick to access as a waved folding knife. Should fixed blade knives be considered soley to be "weapons" because of this fact? I keep telling you that the speed at which a knife can be accessed does not necessarily preclude it from being considered a tool. It is the intent of the user that makes that determination. But then of course you claim to know "why users buy" certain items, so I don't think you will ever really get it.

Sorry, dude. I just don't see the wave as being the sole determining factor as to whether or not a knife is deemed a weapon. I would really like you to show me the basis for what you asserted, that Ernest Emerson created the wave "for quick deployment for use of a knife as a weapon not a tool", by showing me in print where he said so. Link/post/quote your evidence that Emerson stated his knives weren't tools!

If you can do that, I'll take you at your word, that the wave feature makes a knife a weapon. If (insert when) you cannot, you'll undoubtedly have to realize that your attempt to paint the wave as the determining factor in whether or not a knife is determined to be a weapon was as lame as your attempt to coerce Sal Glesser into sending you a free Spyderco Terzuola!

Here's a place for you to start, the wave patent itself (Note how many times the knife is mentioned for its utility function, and how many times word "weapon" comes into play):
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5878500.PN.&OS=PN/5878500&RS=PN/5878500

Here is Emerson Knives Inc.'s warranty (Where is the knife referred to as a "weapon"? I do see it referred to as a "cutting tool", but not a "weapon".):
http://emersonknives.com/EK_Guarantee.html


Regards,
3G

 

[brownshoe]

Mr. AllenC but you are misinformed if your believe that a cop can't search you for their own protection. You are right, they can't stop you for no reason, but if stopped, for say speeding, to question you at a concert, as a bystander at a crime scene, part of security screening at a football game, they can search you w/o any other reason than personal protection. I've seen it happen often, and had it happen to myself. I contacted a lawyer to see if I could have protested the search and they educated me about the change. A few years ago, before the supreme court decision, they were not allowed to search you for a simple stop. They had to be arresting you or have probable cause to believe you have a weapon.

Do you guys read the law column in blade? It might scare you to see how little rights you have to carry a knife in many parts of the US.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Mr. AllenC but you are misinformed if your believe that a cop can't search you for their own protection. You are right, they can't stop you for no reason, but if stopped, for say speeding, to question you at a concert, as a bystander at a crime scene, part of security screening at a football game, they can search you w/o any other reason than personal protection. I've seen it happen often, and had it happen to myself. I contacted a lawyer to see if I could have protested the search and they educated me about the change. A few years ago, before the supreme court decision, they were not allowed to search you for a simple stop. They had to be arresting you or have probable cause to believe you have a weapon.

Do you guys read the law column in blade? It might scare you to see how little rights you have to carry a knife in many parts of the US.

I am well versed in the law, at least in my state and locality. You need to more clearly define what you mean by a "simple stop". If you are referring to a consentual contact, a pat search could only be conducted if consent was given. If you are being detained, then yes, a pat search could be conducted regardless of whether consent was given. However, you must remember that reasonable suspicion must be articulated for a lawful detention to exist.

Aside from having spoken to a lawyer and reading the legal column in Blade magazine, what is your experience with the law as it pertains to knife carry?

Regards,
3G

 

[3Guardsmen]

Brownshoe,
One thing that you neglected to mention in your reply Allen C's post was the fact that if you are carrying a knife in accordance with the law (as one always should), and are not engaged in criminal conduct, there is no need to worry about being in possession of a legal tool.

Regards,
3G

 

[brownshoe]

"You need to more clearly define what you mean by a "simple stop". If you are referring to a consentual contact, a pat search could only be conducted if consent was given." There is no such thing as consentual contact with an officer. By law if they want to talk to you, you must stop what you are doing and obey. They can then search you for their protection w/o cause per the supreme court not law.

"Aside from having spoken to a lawyer and reading the legal column in Blade magazine, what is your experience with the law as it pertains to knife carry?" Why question my authority when you don't give out yours. Oh hey, your sister-in-law is a cop, well I have two cousins who are cops, an uncle who is a cop, a cousin who is a DEA agent, an uncle who is a security guard, a friend who is a lawyer...but I've based my statements on things I've witnessed or had happen to me. Not on their opinions.

By the way, I don't live in a hut in the boondocks, I travel in urban and rural areas throughout the US and know damn well that it's a fiction that if you are "honest and lawabiding" you won't ever be stopped. Just recently, I've been followed and stopped by the cops for just leaving a pool hall. I was patted down, my knife removed and found to be of legal construction and dimension. Then I was given a field sobriety test which I passed since I wasn't drinking. Then they made sure I had my insurance card. Leaving a place that serves alcohol at closing time with out of state plates was sufficient probable cause for the harrassment. I was innocent and let go. In my experience, I've been hassled more in small towns and surban areas than in urban ones. By the way, my profile is of average american, I am not a biker, don't have offensive bumper stickers, don't have any tatoos, am not a teenager, etc.

All I tried to do is bring some awareness of the law to someone who is buying a knife. From my travels, I know that what constitutes a weapon varies from town to town, county to county and state to state. Too many poor suckers buy their pride and joy w/o knowledge of the legal implecations. I carry illegal knives myself, but I do it conciously and always pick my daily carry based upon the situations I will be in and the places I will be going.

 

[allenC]

Mr. AllenC but you are misinformed if your believe that a cop can't search you for their own protection. You are right, they can't stop you for no reason, but if stopped, for say speeding, to question you at a concert, as a bystander at a crime scene, part of security screening at a football game, they can search you w/o any other reason than personal protection. I've seen it happen often, and had it happen to myself. I contacted a lawyer to see if I could have protested the search and they educated me about the change. A few years ago, before the supreme court decision, they were not allowed to search you for a simple stop. They had to be arresting you or have probable cause to believe you have a weapon.

Do you guys read the law column in blade? It might scare you to see how little rights you have to carry a knife in many parts of the US.

Maybe where you live, but not in my city.
Or you contacted an incompetent lawyer.

...

.but if stopped, for say speeding...

No.
If a cop stops you for speeding, but has no other reason to suspect that you are committing any other crime, he/she is NOT legally allowed to have you step from the car and submit to a search.

...to question you at a concert...

Possibly.
Most concerts that I have attended were on private property and so by willingly entering that property you give up certain rights.

...as a bystander at a crime scene...

No.
For example:
If you are standing on the corner and witness a hit-and-run, the police cannot legally search you simple because you witnessed the hit-and-run.

 

[allenC]

There is no such thing as consentual contact with an officer. By law if they want to talk to you, you must stop what you are doing and obey. They can then search you for their protection w/o cause per the supreme court not law.

Not true.
If a cop ask "Hey, can I ask you a few questions?", you are NOT legally obligated to stop and answer the cop's questions.
And no, cops cannot search you simply "for their protection".
If you're walking down the street, a cop cannot just walk up to you and say "For my personal protection I'm going to search you".
That is an illegal search and "police harrassment".
Not to mention that without a valid reason to stop and seach you, anything the cop finds would certainly not be allowed to be submitted in a court case.
I have talked about this thread with several of the officers that work in our ER and they agree with me.
They are very careful to have everything proper in order to make a case in court and they're not going to blow a case on an illegal search.

Just recently, I've been followed and stopped by the cops for just leaving a pool hall. I was patted down, my knife removed and found to be of legal construction and dimension. Then I was given a field sobriety test which I passed since I wasn't drinking. Then they made sure I had my insurance card. Leaving a place that serves alcohol at closing time with out of state plates was sufficient probable cause for the harrassment.

And did you make an official complaint?
Did you seek legal council?
Did you contact the newspapers?
Did the cops who stopped you offer any reason that you were stopped?
Unless you were giving them reason to believe that you were intoxicated, then what they did was not legal.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Allen, I'm going to humbly bow out of this one with Brownshoe. It isn't getting anywhere, and quite frankly, I'm tired of his rhetoric. The following statements, to me, sum up why I don't feel this is a productive discussion any longer:

There is no such thing as consentual contact with an officer.

This one, he'll probably try to edit out:

I carry illegal knives myself, but I do it conciously and always pick my daily carry based upon the situations I will be in and the places I will be going.

Besides, at no point has he backed up any of the assertions he made in post #39 http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4166404&postcount=39, nor can he!

Regards,
3G

 

[brownshoe]

Oh baby, i feel the burnnnnn.

You guys are so right and cool.

AllanC you still ain't told us how come your a legal expert. I'm not, I just go by my experience. When it comes to police behavior and "legal" vs. "illegal" stops and searches, you must live in canada, 'cause it certainly ain't the us of a that i walk through.

3 guardsmen, of course i carry illegal knives...i am a knife nut and true knife nuts always have a little bit of mall ninja in them. I carry an auto, a balisong (big and small), a push dagger, a skein dugh dagger, civilian, and i even carry them concealed. For metal detectors, i've got a flint knapped dagger, small enough to palm, made by a real indian and attached with deer sinew and hoof glue. I just don't carry them everywhere. I've got my special legal, but dangerous side of my collection (e.g. harpy) for those situations.

 

[allenC]

Okay Brownshoe, you win.

The only possible reason for the Wave feature is to transform an ordinary utility folder in to a deadly weapon!

All cops routinely perform illegal searches and violate the rights of law abiding citizens.

We would all be better off carrying a safety scissors because "the man" might kick in our door and search us for no reason!

Enjoy your victory.:thumbdn:

 

[Sal Glesser]

Glesser, you're mixing your apples and oranges. Just like 3guardsmen and his cars. The axis lock was not designed as an integral part of a weapon like the wave. The axis lock is a lock, the wave is an opening feature designed for quick deployment for use of a knife as a weapon not a tool. That's what emerson has said and that's why the users of the feature buy it.

Remember, their are a lot of laws that depend upon the intended purpose of the knife as to whether or not it is classified as a weapon.

The Benchmade's intended purpose is for use as a tool. A knife with the wave's intended purpose is as a weapon. If not as a weapon, why not buy a regular endura, it opens pretty quick with the hole.

Hi Mr. Brownshoe,

I believe you are mistaken with regards to the knife law and design intent. "Quick deployment" does not imply weapon.

We have a wave feature coming out on our rescue model next year. Obvious intent for a "Rescue" model. But if the wave feature is determined to be prohibitive (switch-blade act), then intent doesnt matter. Technically, only military and law enforcement personnel are exempt.

Switch-blade law includes "gravity knives" throughout the US and much of the world. If you can, using a button or lever, easily remove the bias that keeps a folding knife closed and "flick" the knife open using gravity or inertia, it is considered a "gravity" or "flick" knife which is prohibited to carry.

This "flick" open feature, by pulling the lever on an Axis is one of the strongest selling features according to knife salespersons and a popular opening method for users. I have even seens videos on the forums showing how effective the Axis opens when used in this manner.

Unless you can demonstrate that you are law enforcement or Military personnel, you cannot "legally" carry a Switchblade knife, which includes
gravity Knives in most jurisdictions. In some areas, like California, blade length influences legality.

I don't know where you live, but it is not difficult to check your local statutes on knives. I'm sure you will find this to be true.

I might also add that Assisted openers are under "scrutiny" in many areas for the same reasons.

The "origin " of these laws is concern from the "cop on the steet", that someone maybe able to conceal a folding knife in a closed hand and be able to "suddenly produce a deadly blade" that could be used to kill or maim the investigating officer.

Considering the large number of "bad guys" out there. It is easy to understand their concern, even though it interferes with our "afi" tastes.

sal

 

[fst96ss]

I have a 710 D2 combo edge, and I recently just sold my Endura 4 to fund the purchase of another 710, D2 plain edge. To me, the 710 is the definition of an EDC work-horse of a knife. I have been hard pressed to find anything that compares to it in the same price range. If I can find anyone to part with their 710HS, I'll add that to my collection in a second.

 

[brownshoe]

You are correct Mr. Glesser about the different ways knives can fall into prohbited classes. That's my point with the wave. Many places prohibit knives based upon intent. What is the intent of the wave when there is a version that can be opened with a hole? If you are not police, rescue, fire, etc. the police can assume the intent was weapon. You are arrested and you get to explain the situation to a judge/jury. Some people forget that the mere fact of carrying a knife for self defense is sufficient cause to prove intent to use it as a weapon. I've read self defense columns where the spyderco rescue was recommended because it's purpose designed for rescue, not self defense, but the heavy serrations and ease of opening make it a wicked slasher. One of the first self defense knives that i ever got was a hawk billed linoleum cutter or pruner my uncle, a cop, took from a street fighter. That was my first lesson in carrying a knife that had could not be assumed to be a weapon.

 

[allenC]

Many places prohibit knives based upon intent.

This is where you are wrong.
NO PLACE prohibits knives based upon intent.
Some knives are banned in certain places DESPITE the intent.

Some places prohibit bali-songs and it does not matter in the least what the INTENT of the user happens to be.

Knives themselves do not have an INTENT...they are not living creatures (despite what the Sebenza fanatics will tell you).

 

[BOK]

Knives themselves do not have an INTENT...they are not living creatures (despite what the Sebenza fanatics will tell you).

Are you sure? I swear I felt a heartbeat on my Sebenza just the other night.

 

[Thomas Linton]

STOP AND QUESTION

As a matter of federal law, if, under the "totality of the circumstances" an LEO has "reasonable suspicion to believe" that you are engaged in criminal activity, he may order you to stop to be questioned without violating your rights under the 4th Amendment.

Probable cause is not required for such detention under the U.S. Constitution, 4th Amend. Terry v. Ohio (1968).

Under Terry, grounds for "reasonable belief" are two or more of the following:

1. You appear not to fit the time or place (e.g. out of state plates);
2. You match the description of a wanted person [wearing brown shoes?];
3. You act strangely or are emotional, angry, fearful, or intoxicated;
4. You run away or act furtively [hide];
5. You are present in a high-crime area;
6. You are present in a crime scene area (not enough alone or with loitering)

The LEO may require the subject to present ID.


FRISK

Under Terry, if an "experienced police officer" "under the totality of the circumstances" would regard it as reasonable, a person stopped may also be frisked (patted down), and any "immediately apparent" weapon, contraband, or evidence of a crime siezed by the LEO.

Justifications for a frisk always include:

1. [reasonable] concern for the safety of the LEO or others;
2. [reasonable] suspicion that the suspect is armed and dangerous; and
3. [reasonable] suspicion that the suspect is about to comit a crime in where a weapon is commmonly used.

A frisk MAy be justified:

4. where the officer is alone and backup has not arrived;
5. by the number and size of suspects present;
6. by the behavior, emotional state and/or look of the suspects;
7. where the suspect gives evasive answers; or
8. by the time of day and/or nature of the site of the stop (not sufficient alone)

In ANY stop of a motor vehicle where the occupants exit the vehicle, the LEO is justified in searching the passenger compartment of the vehicle for weapons or contraband before allowing the passenges to reenter the vehicle.

Supreme Court decisions since Terry have consistently enlarged the right of LEO's to stop and frisk.

ONCE THEY FIND IT

In Ohio, there is no statute or definitive court decision that defines when a knife, in general, is a "weapon" for purposes of the law prohibiting carrying a "concealed weapon."

Since 9/11, Ohio state and local government has uniformly prohibited bringing any knife (and usually scissors and letter openers) into public buildings on the grounds that any such item is a "weapon." This absurd position has not been challenged in any case with a reported decision. The rules are not uniformly enforced. Some jurisdictions (e.g. Franklin County) return the knives to their owners; others (e.g. Cuyahoga County) steal the knives (except from legally intimidating persons).

Carrying concealed in a pocket certainly qualifies as "concealed" for purposes of the Ohio statute prohibiting carrying a concealed weapon. However, where an office sees that a knife is carried in the pocket, it is not "concealed."

 

[Thomas Linton]

This is where you are wrong.
NO PLACE prohibits knives based upon intent.
Some knives are banned in certain places DESPITE the intent.

Some places prohibit bali-songs and it does not matter in the least what the INTENT of the user happens to be.

Knives themselves do not have an INTENT...they are not living creatures (despite what the Sebenza fanatics will tell you).

Alas, Ohio is a "place," and it prohibits concealed carry or possessing in certain areas (Schools) of items classed as "dangerous weapons" based on the intent of the the person carrying the item that it be used "as a weapon."

2923.11(A) "Deadly weapon" means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon.

Yes, this is often not a very satisfactory standard as it may require mind-reading.

Yes, it may fit a chair leg but not a knife.

No, there is no law to explain the language such as "specially adapted," but Cold Steel has solved that problem for law enforcement with respect to some CS products. (We need not mention Dork Ops.)


Ohio also, stragely, expressly outlaws manufacture, possession for sale, selling or "furnishing" of a "switchblade,""springblade," "gravity knife." "or similar weapon" [not the failure to use "deadly weapon"] but NOT the ownership generally or possession for use of such items. (A switchblade might cause problems under the law prohibiting the carry of a concealed "deadly weapon""other than handguns." Look at the dispute here about the purpose of mechanisms to quickly deploy a blade.)

 

[allenC]

And those rulings have holes so big that even a 1st year law student can walk through them.

I think some of you guys are just paranoid.