Spyderco Manix 2 and Benchmade Griptillian - Next 2 test knives

[singularity35]

Eric Glesser implied that it won't take the over strikes etc so it would be a waste to test another one.

So are they saying it's not hard use anymore? Or it's still a hard use knife but don't use it hard.

 

[Scott Neelan]

So are they saying it's not hard use anymore? Or it's still a hard use knife but don't use it hard.

The catch is that they never really called it a hard use knife. They used buzzwords in their description to make you think it was a hard use knife, but they never came out and actually labelled it as such. It's a marketing trick.

A recipe for folding knife success: Start with hard-use rated lock. Add a blade made of exotic high carbon steel. Manufacture it in Golden, Colorado using precise tolerances then add a healthy dash of American innovation. These ingredients are the Manix2, a concoction of solo features when combined make one of the strongest knives from Spyderco to date.

I added the bolding to point out the phrasing they're using to trick you. It may very well be one of the strongest knives they've made in whatever usage tests they perform on their designs. But they never label it as a hard use knife explicitly. That way, when (in a case like this) it fails a hard use test, they can call it abuse and provide no warranty service.

Rather "corporate" of them, like an insurance company finding loopholes that let them get away with not covering something that should be covered.

 

[Josh K]

The catch is that they never really called it a hard use knife. They used buzzwords in their description to make you think it was a hard use knife, but they never came out and actually labelled it as such. It's a marketing trick.



I added the bolding to point out the phrasing they're using to trick you. It may very well be one of the strongest knives they've made in whatever usage tests they perform on their designs. But they never label it as a hard use knife explicitly. That way, when (in a case like this) it fails a hard use test, they can call it abuse and provide no warranty service.

Rather "corporate" of them, like an insurance company finding loopholes that let them get away with not covering something that should be covered.

Right, because Spyderco is known for "tricking" people with their warranty "loopholes."

What a looser. :thumbdn:

 

[LorenzoL]

Josh, I gave up on this thread a long time ago. The saddest thing is that a majority of those who post here do not even own that knife...

 

[Josh K]

Josh, I gave up on this thread a long time ago. The saddest thing is that a majority of those who post here do not even own that knife...

Am I disappointed in it's performance? Yes.
Do I really feel the need to perpetuate this thread? No.

However, every once in a while people say the most awfully stupid things.

 

[Cotherion]

Eric Glesser implied that it won't take the over strikes etc so it would be a waste to test another one.

Yeah, true. I am of the opinion that the pivot screws (of which there are two on each side) may be contributing to the side to side problem. If you ever decide to do this test again for the Manix 2, could you tighten it after the wood shaving with loctite, and the next day come back to over strike it and spine whack it?

This covers the "it's loose" and "it ain't loctited enough" or "the loctite loosened" aspect of the argument. Noone said exactly like what I wrote, just put it there for ease of understanding.

That's if you ever decide to go at it again of course.

Tq for a providing reasonable hard use test vids instead of whacking it with a 5 pound mallet

 

[5.56]

I own the knife. I consider it hard use for my needs. I use it for heavy cutting, not prying or overstriking. It shares time with my SnG and I have no complaints about either one not be built strong.

 

[Jason B.]

This continues to be a pointless argument, the knife did not fail. The person that put it together failed.

You CAN'T compare it to the CS ultra lock because tolerance will have lesser a effect on that knife simply by design.

 

[singularity35]

Maybe the PB&J guys in the other forum can do their thing here if they want to shut down the thread. Us hard use people are concerned about this. The people who profess to be unconcerned can stop posting here if they find it unpleasant. The argument of the unconcerned camp are.

1. Tests are invalid
2. Even if they are, they don't use their knives that way.
3. Knives are for cutting.

That's been stated and answered for 29 pages. Nothing new is being said by the unconcerned crowd.

 

[jill jackson]

If the ball lock won't take the over-strikes just because of the fact that it's a spring loaded ball bearing and transmitting the sudden shock causes it to rebound and be damaged. Then it's just simply a characteristic of that lock and if you are wanting a folder you can beat the handle on in that manner, the model isn't going to work for you.
I suspect that is what may be happening with these locks. The lock may hold up to massive pressures on the blade itself. But, sharply hitting it under where it's located on a hard surface, with those steel liners enclosing it and also transmitting the force to the lock area upon impact, indeed will cause the spring to do all sorts of moving and lead to failure. If that is what's happening then it's a characteristic of that design and maybe it can't ever be "fixed" to take that sort of handle impact. To those that do not use a folder so hard as to hit the handle in this manner, the test will mean nothing. The blade won't fold on you no matter how you stab and cut with the blade.
So if indeed the spring is affected on the lock as I suspect by the over-strikes, then why not prove that is what is happening and let it go at that? Maybe it's something else, I don't know for certain. But, just to test a model and find it can't take one area of a test and not determine why it didn't accomplished very little IMO. If the design won't take having the handle struck hard under the lock then say so and why then move on, try to fix the problem or live with it.

 

[singularity35]

So if indeed the spring is affected on the lock as I suspect by the over-strikes, then why not prove that is what is happening and let it go at that? Maybe it's something else, I don't know for certain. But, just to test a model and find it can't take one area of a test and not determine why it didn't accomplished very little IMO. If the design won't take having the handle struck hard under the lock then say so and why then move on, try to fix the problem or live with it.

Spyderco themselves would be the best source of what caused whatever it was but there doesn't seem to be anything forthcoming from them. Maybe that is why this thread has gone on for so long.

 

[jill jackson]

Spyderco themselves would be the best source of what caused whatever it was but there doesn't seem to be anything forthcoming from them. Maybe that is why this thread has gone on for so long.

What we did get from Eric was that the knife would not take the over-strikes.
He also said he would not validate the test. I guess he feels beating the handle of a folder is an unreasonable test.

 

[singularity35]

What we did get from Eric was that the knife would not take the over-strikes.
He also said he would not validate the test. I guess he feels beating the handle of a folder is an unreasonable test.

I guess that's all we'll get from them. What I'd like to know at this point is whether the overstrikes will just cause an inadvertent release or will it cause catastrophic failure of the lock?

 

[bchan77]

I have to admit that I'm disappointed with the direction this thread has taken.

The M2 failed. It's not Ankerson's "fault", neither is it a sign of any unfairness or anything. It simply highlights a design flaw that should be accepted, not overlooked, as Spyderco has done.

I'm not too pleased with Mr.Glesser's response to Ankerson; I found the comment on "obituaries" needlessly offensive, even if it were true. Disappointing from a company that has "shiny footprints" as its philosophy, and has a reputation for that kind of thing.

+1. I too also feel sorry for the accusations Mr. Ankerson received because of the test. I don't believe he is on any sort of image smearing campaign against Spyderco and I think that Mr. Glesser was overly sensitive about Mr. Ankerson's intentions. For this kind of response to have come from Spyderco, a company which I have high regard, is particularly disappointing.

If the ball lock won't take the over-strikes just because of the fact that it's a spring loaded ball bearing and transmitting the sudden shock causes it to rebound and be damaged. Then it's just simply a characteristic of that lock and if you are wanting a folder you can beat the handle on in that manner, the model isn't going to work for you. ....

If that is what's happening then it's a characteristic of that design and maybe it can't ever be "fixed" to take that sort of handle impact. To those that do not use a folder so hard as to hit the handle in this manner, the test will mean nothing. The blade won't fold on you no matter how you stab and cut with the blade.

So if indeed the spring is affected on the lock as I suspect by the over-strikes, then why not prove that is what is happening and let it go at that? Maybe it's something else, I don't know for certain. But, just to test a model and find it can't take one area of a test and not determine why it didn't accomplished very little IMO. If the design won't take having the handle struck hard under the lock then say so and why then move on, try to fix the problem or live with it.

+ 1 on this too.

 

[Ankerson]

What we did get from Eric was that the knife would not take the over-strikes.
He also said he would not validate the test. I guess he feels beating the handle of a folder is an unreasonable test.

From what I remember he stated the lock wasn't designed to handle it so that's means that it just won't take it.

I guess that's all we'll get from them. What I'd like to know at this point is whether the overstrikes will just cause an inadvertent release or will it cause catastrophic failure of the lock?

Eric said simply that repeated over strikes will break the lock, I think that sums it up pretty well.

 

[philwar]

I own the knife. I consider it hard use for my needs. I use it for heavy cutting, not prying or overstriking. It shares time with my SnG and I have no complaints about either one not be built strong.

I feel much the same way about the Manix 2. It gets a lot of pocket time, and I'm not sparing the knife. It gives me no reason to think it will ever fail on me.

There are things I won't do with it that I will do with some other folders, but one look at the knife will tell you what they are. Common sense is all it takes.

 

[philwar]

Josh, I gave up on this thread a long time ago.

No you didn't. You're still here. And for you, the only acceptable outcome would be if the M2 was unanimously declared the toughest folder on earth, with no flaws or imperfections whatsoever. Your mind is as open on this issue as Fort Knox on Sunday

The saddest thing is that a majority of those who post here do not even own that knife...

I do own it and it's not relevant. There may be many prospective buyers, people who own similar knives, or knives with a similar lock. There may even be a link to the Spyderco design philosophy (personally I think there is), and that affects a lot of people.

You think most people here are negative, out to bash. Have you ever considered that it is you? You simply don't want to hear anything negative about the M2, even if it may be true. You don't even try to deny this. You won't consider the possibility that either the knife has a design flaw, or it's just not as tough as Spyderco says it is. Either one of those may well be the case, but you'd rather lose a kidney than admit to even that possibility.
Some self-reflection on your objectiveness is called for. I don't expect that call to be answered, but there you are.

 

[LorenzoL]

I feel much the same way about the Manix 2. It gets a lot of pocket time, and I'm not sparing the knife. It gives me no reason to think it will ever fail on me.

There are things I won't do with it that I will do with some other folders, but one look at the knife will tell you what they are. Common sense is all it takes.

I actually agree with both your statements in bold. I never claimed that the M2 is perfect, I just think that many people have the wrong expectations about a $70 knife with a 3mm-thick blade that weighs just over 4 ounces. Kind of like buying a small 4x4 and expect it to perform off-road like a Hummer.
The Manix 2 is a compromise, I spend some time on the Spyderco forum and most of the talk there is about getting thinner blades and lighter knives. I think that the last thing that customer base wants/needs is a true "tank" of a knife and for their needs the Manix 2 is certainly strong enough.
What I was reacting very strongly against in my earlier posts were the personal attacks against Sal & Eric, especially those questioning their integrity. I have bought many Spydercos over the years (as well as BMs, CRKs so I am quite open-minded) and I can state that Spyderco has the best warranty department of any production company. I have returned folders with blade-centering issues and small cosmetic issues and they were exchanged with no questions asked.
I bought a discontinued model from a member of this forum who had "forgotten" to tell me he had damaged the backspacers while trying to disassemble the knife, and Charlynn took care of me, going through their available parts to find a close match. She did not have to but she did.
Rest assured that if your Spyderco fails during normal use they will fix it, but also know that they do have a short fuse for people who purposely abuse or modify their knives.

 

[Ankerson]

The Manix 2 is a compromise, I spend some time on the Spyderco forum and most of the talk there is about getting thinner blades and lighter knives. I think that the last thing that customer base wants/needs is a true "tank" of a knife and for their needs the Manix 2 is certainly strong enough.

Yes it is a compromise. :thumbup:

You can't have both a knife that will slice cheese like a wire and still be a tank or hard use knife. Thin blades that slice well just won't take any kind of prying without something happening. That's why I would never even think about prying with my Endura 4 FFG or JD Smith, but then they aren't classified as hard use either.

A true hard use knife has to be hard use in all aspects of the design, yes it will be built heavier, the blade and tip will be thicker and the lock will be stronger so it really can take hard use. One simply can't classify a knife as hard use if the tip will snap off at the 1st use of prying or the lock fails easy because it won't take any shock.

Would a true hard use knife really sell all that well if Spyderco made one?

I mean if most of their customers want cheese slicers and letter openers then that would tell me it wouldn't sell very well to current fans so it wouldn't really be good business to build one.

I know I would by one if they made it, but that's me.

 

[singularity35]

The Manix 2 is a compromise

I spend some time on the Spyderco forum and most of the talk there is about getting thinner blades and lighter knives. I think that the last thing that customer base wants/needs is a true "tank" of a knife and for their needs the Manix 2 is certainly strong enough.

So maybe that's where the key to this whole thing lies. Maybe hard use for them is light to medium use when compared to other hard use knives. They could maybe make a statement to this effect. I'm sure that would settle the issue and clarify things.

What I was reacting very strongly against in my earlier posts were the personal attacks against Sal & Eric, especially those questioning their integrity

In spite of their history of "gentlemanly" behavior and "shiny tracks" it was Eric who hurled the only accusations against dishonesty on the part of Ankerson. I have been following this thread and I don't think any post questioning their integrity. There were posts referring to Eric's ungentlemanly behavior after he tried to discredit Ankerson and the tests. Obituary pages indeed.

It also seems that the tone in the other forum is that something was done to the knife off camera, as mentioned by one of the big guns there.