Spyderco price increases and higher MAP pricing

[RamZar]

Another way dealers are making Spyderco sales attractive are through bundles. For instance, BladeHQ has a Para3 SpyderEdge, a Squarehead and a Soldier Tactical Stocking Bundle for $129.99 or a Para3 ComboEdge plus Dog Tag Folder for $119.99! Of course, several Spyderco dealers have rewards points which can be applied towards Spyderco knives.

Also, after the increase in MAP there will still be some attarctive options vis-a-vis the competition. For instance, the Benchmade Bugout S30V/Polymer is $114.75 and the Native5 Lightweight S35VN/FRN after MAP increase will only be $94.22. Both are made in the U.S.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Another way dealers are making Spyderco sales attractive are through bundles. For instance, BladeHQ has a Para3 SpyderEdge, a Squarehead and a Soldier Tactical Stocking Bundle for $129.99 or a Para3 ComboEdge plus Dog Tag Folder for $119.99! Of course, several Spyderco dealers have rewards points which can be applied towards Spyderco knives.

Also, after the increase in MAP there will still be some attarctive options vis-a-vis the competition. For instance, the Benchmade Bugout S30V/Polymer is $114.75 and the Native5 Lightweight S35VN/FRN after MAP increase will only be $94.22. Both are made in the U.S.

Yup. And even with the increase, I still feel like some Spydies will still be among the best values in the industry. The Manix line, in particular, offers some pretty amazing bang for the buck.

 

[SharpieB]

For instance, BladeHQ has a Para3 SpyderEdge, a Squarehead and a Soldier Tactical Stocking Bundle for $129.99 or a Para3 ComboEdge plus Dog Tag Folder for $119.99!

Thanks. You just cost me $119+shipping to Canada.

 

[BMCGear]

Another way dealers are making Spyderco sales attractive are through bundles. For instance, BladeHQ has a Para3 SpyderEdge, a Squarehead and a Soldier Tactical Stocking Bundle for $129.99 or a Para3 ComboEdge plus Dog Tag Folder for $119.99! Of course, several Spyderco dealers have rewards points which can be applied towards Spyderco knives.

Also, after the increase in MAP there will still be some attarctive options vis-a-vis the competition. For instance, the Benchmade Bugout S30V/Polymer is $114.75 and the Native5 Lightweight S35VN/FRN after MAP increase will only be $94.22. Both are made in the U.S.

If it were a plain edge I'd have bought one!

 

[willc]

Hi Willc,

MAP is minimum ADVERTISED price. Competition still exists. There are many ways to compete other than just the lowest price. Quality, service, attention, personality, presentation, extra value, etc. Do you really think that only the lowest price is the only way to compete? And still sellers find innovative ways to get around price.

sal

Thanks for the reply Sal.
For myself lowest price is rarely determining factor on where I shop. I’ve been in a Walmart once in my life and have yet to purchase anything there but for most Americans price is bottom line.

For knives I buy from mostly dealers with membership here and a few small businesses that don’t play ball here.

My main beef is it is just another rule (law) and most who benefit from these are the powerful.

I noticed you highlighted ADVERTISED, I can guarantee nobody is going to SELL Spyderco products for less than 35% other than Amazon or Ebay and I don’t buy knives there.

The last time I bought a Benchmade was Dec 2013 when they went with Map cause the value was no longer there for me.
I know I will continue to buy Spyderco cause even with the hike they are still a value brand to me but I’m sure I will buy less.

I’m really interested to see how this goes with all the smaller dealers next year and if they have a whole lot of red and black boxes sitting on their shelves 12 months from now.

 

[BMCGear]

Thanks for the reply Sal.
For myself lowest price is rarely determining factor on where I shop. I’ve been in a Walmart once in my life and have yet to purchase anything there but for most Americans price is bottom line.

For knives I buy from mostly dealers with membership here and a few small businesses that don’t play ball here.

My main beef is it is just another rule (law) and most who benefit from these are the powerful.

I noticed you highlighted ADVERTISED, I can guarantee nobody is going to SELL Spyderco products for less than 35% other than Amazon or Ebay and I don’t buy knives there.

Yep. I went into my local brick and mortar store today. They sell another brand that has MAP. I picked out a few knives that I was interested in out of the few new ones they got in and they priced the knives to me below MAP even after tax. Some of their older stock they told me they'd make me a better deal. It would be nice if the online dealers would offer a similar deal if you reached out to them. Not going to happen so I'll probably try to buy locally more as it supports my local community and work force as well as gets me a better deal because the guys understand that to move a product they need to be competitive. We both mutually benefit from this rather than only the dealer benefiting.

 

[danthaman1980]

Knivesshipfree offers 10 points for every dollar spent. KSF recently sent me a promo code for $10 off any purchase (excluding any brand I would be interested in buying). Recently I asked them to price match a Benchmade and was told they could not because of MAP. I explained that MAP is minimum ADVERTISED price (like you said) and they replied that their contract with Benchmade prohibits them from selling below MAP.

I'm no lawyer but geez that sounds illegal. Any lawyers want to weigh in on this?
Whether or not it is true, whether or not it is legal, that is an incredibly stupid thing for a dealer to admit. It pisses me off that KSF would sign that contract, but it pisses me off even more that Benchmade would even ask them to. Shame. (BTW, last Benchmade I purchased - only a few months ago - was $40 below MAP. It takes a little effort, but it can be done.)

THANK YOU, SAL for confirming that you are not putting any of the knife dealers in this position! Please make sure your dealers are informed that they are free to SELL knives under MAP, that they are free to accept reasonable offers from customers, if they so choose, without fear of retaliation from Spyderco.

 

[BMCGear]

I'm no lawyer but geez that sounds illegal. Any lawyers want to weigh in on this?
Whether or not it is true, whether or not it is legal, that is an incredibly stupid thing for a dealer to admit. It pisses me off that KSF would sign that contract, but it pisses me off even more that Benchmade would even ask them to. Shame. (BTW, last Benchmade I purchased - only a few months ago - was $40 below MAP. It takes a little effort, but it can be done.)

THANK YOU, SAL for confirming that you are not putting any of the knife dealers in this position! Please make sure your dealers are informed that they are free to SELL knives under MAP, that they are free to accept reasonable offers from customers, if they so choose, without fear of retaliation from Spyderco.

I searched for the email but I no longer have it. Once I explained how MAP worked the guy said he contacted their rep and they agreed to offer me a one time price. So, there may actually be no contract.

The issue is that no online dealer is going to accept a reasonable offer or make a deal. That's what is upsetting about this.

Anyway, I've said my piece as a customer and in a way I feel was respectful. At the end of the day that's probably not worth a whole lot, lol!

 

[sharp_edge]

If dealers are allowed to sell at prices below MAP, why I almost have never seen any reputable deals doing that (bar discontinued or dealer exclusives, for which my understanding is that MAP no longer applies to them)?

And what exactly does this "advertised price" mean? If a price is publically and explicitly listed for an item, it is an "advertised price," correct? If yes, what would be NOT "advertised price?" Something like "add to cart to see the price" or "call or email us for the price" or "come to our store and we will tell you the price privately?"

I guess what I am speculating is while theoretically MAP does not prohibit dealers from selling below it, practically it does make it difficult if not impossible, hence MAP indeed has the effect of pice fixing.

Also, I don't quite get the argument that MAP will protect smaller dealers. Why so? Just because everyone sells at the same price, people will go to smaller dealers?

 

[halden.doerge]

Also, I don't quite get the argument that MAP will protect smaller dealers. Why so? Just because everyone sells at the same price, people will go to smaller dealers?

Without MAP pricing, huge mega-retailers (amazon, Walmart, etc) could afford to sell at much lower margins and smaller, specialized retailers couldn't remotely compete.

Without MAP, no one but Amazon sells knives. Simple as that. Sad, but true. MAP doesn't ensure that consumers will buy from smaller retailers, but it at least makes it possible for consumers to do so without a huge penalty.

 

[loonybin]

Also, I don't quite get the argument that MAP will protect smaller dealers. Why so? Just because everyone sells at the same price, people will go to smaller dealers?

The idea behind MAP is to raise the perceived value of the brand. Manufacturers in may other areas of retail have been doing it for years. Oakley sunglasses comes to mind. Enforcing it is theoretically designed to protect the brand value and to get people to go to local retailers. Before MAP, folks would go to a store to handle/fondle, look at it, ask a bazillion questions, etc., then go buy it for less online. The brick & mortar store who has overhead does all the work and loses the sale due to someone else who has fewer expenses (no physical building to power, clean, insure, etc.) undercutting them. I'm not saying I agree with it, but that is the idea.

 

[whp]

Without MAP pricing, huge mega-retailers (amazon, Walmart, etc) could afford to sell at much lower margins and smaller, specialized retailers couldn't remotely compete.

Without MAP, no one but Amazon sells knives. Simple as that. Sad, but true. MAP doesn't ensure that consumers will buy from smaller retailers, but it at least makes it possible for consumers to do so without a huge penalty.

Hmmmm.
So in the 15-20 years I ve been interested in knives as a hobby before map pricing, most retailers were dying due to to the growth of Walmart and Amazon?
I never realized.
One other question to consider. If an 8.3% increase is prices isn t big enough to cause concern, is there some increase big enough that would?
!8.3%? 28.3%? What price to put on "loyalty"? I think everyone would be bothered by an increase of some size. So by belittling a concern about an 8.3% hike, are we picking on the less prosperous among us? (I personally would like to have more money to buy knives. ).

Something else to think about. When a less prosperous knife nut buys a Spyderco, it is just as valuable to the company as when a wealthy knife nut buys one. And I bet I know which group is bigger.

I wonder if Benchmade is happy with their map policy. For some reason the company seems to have slipped in recent years. Maybe it s not related. Maybe.

 

[danthaman1980]

If dealers are allowed to sell at prices below MAP, why I almost have never seen any reputable deals doing that (bar discontinued or dealer exclusives, for which my understanding is that MAP no longer applies to them)?

And what exactly does this "advertised price" mean? If a price is publically and explicitly listed for an item, it is an "advertised price," correct? If yes, what would be NOT "advertised price?" Something like "add to cart to see the price" or "call or email us for the price" or "come to our store and we will tell you the price privately?"

I guess what I am speculating is while theoretically MAP does not prohibit dealers from selling below it, practically it does make it difficult if not impossible, hence MAP indeed has the effect of pice fixing.

Also, I don't quite get the argument that MAP will protect smaller dealers. Why so? Just because everyone sells at the same price, people will go to smaller dealers?

My guess is many of the dealers who won't sell below MAP are very likely the same dealers who have been asking for MAP.

You won't see any dealers listing prices below MAP because publishing a price below MAP would be an advertisement. But the dealer should still be able to sell to you below MAP. The trick is, you have to agree to a price with the dealer without the dealer publishing or stating the price. This means YOU have to attempt to negotiate. This means you have to make the offer.
Many dealers will say they aren't allowed to sell below their stated price, either because they are misinformed, or because they believe you are misinformed, or because they fear that the manufacturer will stop selling to them if word gets out, or because it's just easier to say they can't than to explain that they'd just rather not negotiate.

In that way, you are correct, MAP is effectively price fixing.

My $0.02: Ask around, call up the dealers and find the one or two that will accept reasonable offers. Then keep that info private. (I'm pretty certain there are dealers who do NOT like MAP because they would prefer to compete on price. Just a hunch).

 

[halden.doerge]

Hmmmm.
So in the 15-20 years I ve been interested in knives as a hobby before map pricing, most retailers were dying due to to the growth of Walmart and Amazon?
I never realized.
One other question to consider. If an 8.3% increase is prices isn t big enough to cause concern, is there some increase big enough that would?
!8.3%? 28.3%? What price to put on "loyalty"? I think everyone would be bothered by an increase of some size. So by belittling a concern about an 8.3% hike, are we picking on the less prosperous among us? (I personally would like to have more money to buy knives. ).

Something else to think about. When a less prosperous knife nut buys a Spyderco, it is just as valuable to the company as when a wealthy knife nut buys one. And I bet I know which group is bigger.

I wonder if Benchmade is happy with their map policy. For some reason the company seems to have slipped in recent years. Maybe it s not related. Maybe.

Well, yes the market has kinda changed a little bit in the last couple decades. Most specialized online knife retailers that we have right now, which provide high quality service and expertise have come to exist and grow precisely because of MAP pricing. Most of them weren't here till just a few years ago. And tons of brick and mortar stores have been driven out of business by Amazon. This isn't news at all.

I think it also bears mention that virtually all major US based production knife companies (Spyderco, Kershaw/ZT, Benchmade, CRK, Hinderer, et al) use MAP. It's not some new thing that's suddenly being sprung on us. It's the norm under the current state of the market and it's why we can have specialized retailers. Is it perfect? No. Does it guarantee the absolute lowest prices possible to the consumer? No. If that's one's sole care, the absolute lowest price, then yeah, the complaining makes some sense in that regard. And in that world, only Amazon sells you knives.

If other priorities matter, like dedicated, specialized retailers based in the US, quality manufacturing and service based in the US, and opportunities for more small businesses to enter the marketplace, then maybe there's not as much reason to complain. Those other priorities matter to me, which is why I don't feel like I need to complain so readily over this.

Does that privilege those with more means over those with less? Sure, I guess. But Spydercos range in prices from sub $20-$400 plus, so I think there's always going to be something available for every budget.

 

[jbmonkey]

Most specialized online knife retailers that we have right now, which provide high quality service and expertise have come to exist and grow precisely because of MAP pricing. Most of them weren't here till just a few years ago.

who are you referring to? there are many online knife specialty dealers who have been on the internet since it basically began. knifecenter in 1995 and knifeworks since 1998, cutleryshoppe has been on for almost as long. bladehq since 2003 and many long term brick and mortar locations went online such as knivesplus as one example. none of them came from map, but from the volume internet allows. im guessing im missing who you are referring to as new or last couple years and specialized and knowledgeable as im not following? im gonna also assume you are disqualifying the ones i mentioned as random picked examples as they dont fit into your theory of map and being around only last couple years. thanks in advance for clarifying so i understand better what youre saying.

 

[halden.doerge]

who are you referring to? there are many online knife specialty dealers who have been on the internet since it basically began. knifecenter in 1995 and knifeworks since 1998, cutleryshoppe has been on for almost as long. bladehq since 2003 and many long term brick and mortar locations went online such as knivesplus as one example. none of them came from map, but from the volume internet allows. im guessing im missing who you are referring to as new or last couple years and specialized and knowledgeable as im not following? im gonna also assume you are disqualifying the ones i mentioned as random picked examples as they dont fit into your theory of map and being around only last couple years. thanks in advance for clarifying so i understand better what youre saying.

You're right, they didn't just spring up yesterday. I should have phrased that differently. It is however definitely the case that they've been able to grow beyond smaller mom and pop operations to larger functional businesses in large part due to MAP, IMO. I suppose I did misstate in the last post on that point. It would be more accurate to say that these businesses are able to be sustained on the scale that they exist now because of MAP. Just ask them, I doubt there will be any dispute about it.

 

[jbmonkey]

You're right, they didn't just spring up yesterday. I should have phrased that differently. It is however definitely the case that they've been able to grow beyond smaller mom and pop operations to larger functional businesses in large part due to MAP, IMO. I suppose I did misstate in the last post on that point. It would be more accurate to say that these businesses are able to be sustained on the scale that they exist now because of MAP. Just ask them, I doubt there will be any dispute about it.

gotcha. thanks.

not sure theyll say map did it though. volume on the internet i would think made the differencenand was the difference the b&m guys went online. then again ive never asked them. maybe youre right?

regardless im guessing and do not know so like my old man used to tell me when i ran my trap as a kid..... if i dont know i should keep quiet, so im gonna do that. appreciate the follow up and discussion on the topic. thank you Sir.

 

[mastiffhound]

I suspect there would be a boycott of certain dealers...

Why shouldn't we know as consumers who wanted prices fixed at a higher rate? People have been honest in this thread why shouldn't the dealers be honest? Unless like children, they're afraid they'll be punished? You know, like when children know that they've done something wrong and either omit the truth or say nothing at all? If they really think what they're doing is perfectly Kosher, wouldn't they man up and say "Yeah, we pushed for this."?

Shouldn't we as consumers be informed enough to make the decision if we want to spend money with a company that's pushing for these higher prices over the dealers that weren't? If MAP is to make things "fair" then that information needs to be included. Otherwise MAP is just underhanded price fixing at the behest of a few large dealers.

For more than 35 years Spyderco didn't have MAP, but in just the last few years it became impossible to make a profit selling them? Uh huh, so Spyderco grew as a company despite not a single dealer making a decent profit? Seems probable right? Hopefully the dealers that didn't push for this and don't advocate for this chime in, because they're the ones I'd like to get my hard earned dollars.

 

[halden.doerge]

Why shouldn't we know as consumers who wanted prices fixed at a higher rate? People have been honest in this thread why shouldn't the dealers be honest? Unless like children, they're afraid they'll be punished? You know, like when children know that they've done something wrong and either omit the truth or say nothing at all? If they really think what they're doing is perfectly Kosher, wouldn't they man up and say "Yeah, we pushed for this."?

Shouldn't we as consumers be informed enough to make the decision if we want to spend money with a company that's pushing for these higher prices over the dealers that weren't? If MAP is to make things "fair" then that information needs to be included. Otherwise MAP is just underhanded price fixing at the behest of a few large dealers.

For more than 35 years Spyderco didn't have MAP, but in just the last few years it became impossible to make a profit selling them? Uh huh, so Spyderco grew as a company despite not a single dealer making a decent profit? Seems probable right? Hopefully the dealers that didn't push for this and don't advocate for this chime in, because they're the ones I'd like to get my hard earned dollars.

Lol, don't hold your breath waiting for a dealer to come out against MAP. I mean, you know, except Amazon. They'd love your hard earned dollars.

 

[mastiffhound]

Lol, don't hold your breath waiting for a dealer to come out against MAP. I mean, you know, except Amazon. They'd love your hard earned dollars.

One or the other would swing more dollars those dealers way. When someone advocates to take more money out of my pocket I like to know who they are. It works that way for taxes as much as anything else. I can find out who signed or created the bill to raise my taxes. We were all pretty much just told that a 8.3% tax increase was placed on our favorite knife company. I want to know who pushed for it so I can " make an informed vote" with my wallet. That's absolutely fair. Like I said, if those dealers think that they're perfectly in the right for pressuring for the higher MAP then they'd come forward and tell us wouldn't they?