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spyderco vg10 vs cold steel aus 8
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Ankerson
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I dont get this thread at all, how can anyone seriously believe that AUS8 is as good as VG10? I like my Recon 1 but there is no way it holds an edge as long as my Endura 4. I always heard that AUS6 is about the same as 440A, AUS8=440B and AUS10=440C, VG10 is a lot better than 440B. It seems to me there must be a reason why AUS8 is found almost exclusively in cheap, low end knives and VG10 is found in more expensive, higher end knives. I would have been happy to pay 20 or 30 bucks more for my Recon 1 if the blade was VG10 or 154CM. You can get a Utilitac 2 in AUS8 for around 30 bucks, no way you could get it that cheap if the blade was VG10. From what I have heard and read AUS8 8 is about equal to that 8Cr13MoV stuff coming out of china. As for Ankersons rope cutting test, knarfeng did a rope cutting test back in 2008 with very different results, unless AUS8 is much better steel now than it was then, I would assume the results are still valid.
Check post #18 in this thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/608209-VG-10-or-AUS-8
Apologies if I stepped on any toes, just telling it like I see it.
Check post #18 in this thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/608209-VG-10-or-AUS-8
Apologies if I stepped on any toes, just telling it like I see it.
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Do you have any other experience with those 2 steels in any other knife except the two you have? The people who are saying that there's little difference have A LOT of experience with those steels. More than just a one knife with each steel. What you may be experiencing is difference in edge geometry, edge finish, and heat treat.
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Ankerson
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Have you ever looked at the alloy content of the two steels?
AUS-8A
Carbon - 0.70 - 0.75%
Molybdenum - 0.10-0.30%
Silicon - 1.00%
Chromium - 13.00-14.50%
Manganese - 0.50%
Nickel - 0.49%
Vanadium - 0.10-0.26%
VG-10
Carbon - 0.95-1.05%
Cobalt - 1.30-1.50%
Molybdenum - 0.90-1.20%
Silicon - 0.60%
Chromium - 14.50-15.50%
Manganese - 0.50%
Vanadium - 0.10-0.30%
Alloys that contribute in the forming of carbides in bold..... The 2 steels are a lot closer than people think, or would have people believe....
Both steels are lower end, affordable steels used in more affordable knives for the most part.
Don't know were people would get a lot better, the alloy content just isn't there for a lot better either way.....
The 2 steels are in fact very close in performance, so close that other factors could and will have more impact on performance..... That is edge and blade geometry, edge finish, thickness behind the edge etc.
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Ankerson
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Yeah, the steels in this class, that covers a lot of steels are all really pretty close in performance with slightly different percentages of alloys that can tweak different aspects of how they act.
Hello Ankerson
I have seen the difference in alloy content and I noted that VG10 has more carbon and a lot more molybdenum. Doesn't more carbon mean better edge retention?
One more thing, I have been watching your videos for a couple years now and I like them very much.
I have seen the difference in alloy content and I noted that VG10 has more carbon and a lot more molybdenum. Doesn't more carbon mean better edge retention?
One more thing, I have been watching your videos for a couple years now and I like them very much.
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I've always said that it's more down to the HT and edge geometry than the steel itself.
Just looking at CS, I've got a Ti-Lite that will cut all day, and a Spartan that gets dull as soon as look at it.
Both AUS-8, both same manufacturer.
I'm not a fan of AUS-8, I have to say.
That said, it's not bad.
Just looking at CS, I've got a Ti-Lite that will cut all day, and a Spartan that gets dull as soon as look at it.
Both AUS-8, both same manufacturer.
I'm not a fan of AUS-8, I have to say.
That said, it's not bad.
Ankerson
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No, more carbon doesn't mean better edge retention by itself, it depends on the other alloys.
The carbon content is very close in the 2 steels looking at the ranges, 0.25% isn't really a lot....
The Molybdenum difference is somewhat higher percentage wise, but then again look at the ranges.... Maybe 0.60% difference depending.....
That Recon 1 that used in this test.... Well it seems the hardness range is on the higher side for AUS-8 as it's always done very well holding an edge for that steel, better than most of the others I have seen over the years.
The two knives tested, the Recon 1 is slightly thinner behind the edge than the Stretch.
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Honestly I really dont understand where these rumors of steel equivalents come from. When people say AUS8 is comparable to 440B the ONLY thing they must be looking at is the Carbon content. Does the carbon content of steel matter? depending on the rest of the composition yes and no. Some steels such as Vanax 35 rely on nitrides and not carbides so while the low carbon content makes the steel look like 440A in some peoples eyes it theoretically should be comparable to S30V in edge retention. Carbon isnt the only factor when regarding knife steel. And if you look at a chart comparing 440B to aus8 yes they have comparable carbon content. But Aus 8 has Vanadium (increases hardness) albeit in lower quantities its still enough to make a difference. There is also Nickel which increases hardness as well. With none of the 440 steels possessing either of these elements I often wonder why people even compare these steels. Ive also seen people say that Bohler N690co is the equivalent of 440C yet 440C doesnt have any cobalt in it. It seems many like to point out the similarities of steel compostion when it benefits their argument but dismiss the differences when they hurt their argument. Bottom line is 90% of us dont have a degree in metallurgy including myself. So we can sit and look at steel charts all day and blow smoke on which are alike and which are different but id say there are only a handful of people here who truly understand steel composition and how it relates to knives. Plus all these comparisons between these differents steels dont take into consideration the heat treat performed on these steels. Some makers run them harder, some makers run them softer. Which in the end will make some of the data irrelevant. I dont think Aus 8 is a cheap steel used in low end knives. Its used in imported knives and i think there is a distinction. I would view 8cr13mov as more of a budget steel than AUS8. But even 8cr13mov can perform extremely well given the price point. And while those steels have similar composition some would argue that Aichi of Japan has better manufacturing capabilities and makes a cleaner product. Some simply dont trust chinese steel production when considering impurities.
When comparing videos of cutting performance the steel choice is only 1 factor to consider of many. Many would argue that edge geometry, blade grind and the persons skill with a blade will vary your results more than the actual material the blade is made of. And edge retention will vary depending on heat treat and edge geometry.
I’ve seen tests where Aus 8 and VG10 are similar in performance, but usually VG10 comes out on top. In my own experience, VG10 is a step up from Aus 8. But it’s difficult to make blanket statements because steel performance is so complex. Personally, I think the heat treat/hardening process is underappreciated, mostly because we have no idea what that process is with the knives we buy. We’re lucky to know the hardness – and then only an estimate of hardness. Take two knives with a stated Rc of 58-60. One might be 57.6, and the other might be 60.4.
I’ve been dabbling in the purchase of relatively inexpensive custom knives. After watching a video of a W2 blade chopping nails in half without edge damage, I wanted to try that steel. The bowie in W2 I tried could not even chop clean, straight-grained Doug fir without damage – something all my other knives can do. So is W2 a great steel or an inferior one? Could be either.
I reprofile all my knives, and the process of grinding a new bevel by hand tells a lot about the steel. I had a 1095 hunter that didn’t tell me good things during the reprofile (I know, it’s an intuitive thing, but I’m a combat vet and intuition has saved my life more than once, so I listen to it.). The blade grind was also done very poorly, and I got the sense that it was a bad knife. I took a dislike to it and decided to give it a hard test: I held on the handle with one hand and rested the tip on the floor. Then I kicked the flat of the blade. The blade broke up by the scales. Most of the blade broke, but there was a flat of thin metal that didn’t quite give out on the side, so the blade just flopped back and forth. The same test on a cheap, thin knife that I found laying in the middle of a logging road had a thinner blade, hollow ground, made of some kind of non-stainless steel, with a plastic and wood handle. It easily withstood the kick, even when I repeated the kick harder.
I’ve found 1095 – done right – to be a great steel. It’s tough and easy to resharpen. But with a poor heat treat, it can perform worse than a cheap blade.
We all like to look at the various alloys of knife steels and try to infer the basic characteristics that the recipe foretells. It’s like reading entrails. But the ingredients list offers only a hint of what the steel is capable of. If the making of knife steels were as easy as adding the right ingredients in the right amounts, we’d have much better steels and much less to talk about. But steels are more complicated.
In his 1998 book, “Knife Talk,” Ed Fowler talks about the potential of 52100 steel. In a heat treat process of virgin 52100 that involved multiple heatings to the point where 52100 lost its magnetic properties and multiple coolings of various times and at various speeds, the grain size of the steel was dramatically reduced so that further heat treatments could deliver the steel’s full potential.
The steel was heated and cooled some more. Sometimes the cooling took days and was repeated. Sometimes the blade was cooled to room temperature. Sometimes the blade was submerged in liquid nitrogen for 24 hours. And on and on.
Ed found the process improved the steel’s cutting performance 300 percent, compared to blades that had not been freeze treated. He flexed one blade 180 degrees 6 and a half times before the edge cracked. A metallurgist examined the grain size of the steel and found it was the finest he’d ever seen. The carbide size was less than one micron. The carbides in D2, by comparison, are 10-15 microns.
The hardness of the blade’s edge was 58 Rc. The spine was 30 Rc. The center of the blade, which was annealed by not hardened, was softer than the spine.
So how good is 52100? Well what was the heat treat and what was the skill of the smith?
So is VG10 better than Aus 8? Could be either. I’d put more faith in Spyderco’s heat threat than Cold Steel’s.
I’ve been dabbling in the purchase of relatively inexpensive custom knives. After watching a video of a W2 blade chopping nails in half without edge damage, I wanted to try that steel. The bowie in W2 I tried could not even chop clean, straight-grained Doug fir without damage – something all my other knives can do. So is W2 a great steel or an inferior one? Could be either.
I reprofile all my knives, and the process of grinding a new bevel by hand tells a lot about the steel. I had a 1095 hunter that didn’t tell me good things during the reprofile (I know, it’s an intuitive thing, but I’m a combat vet and intuition has saved my life more than once, so I listen to it.). The blade grind was also done very poorly, and I got the sense that it was a bad knife. I took a dislike to it and decided to give it a hard test: I held on the handle with one hand and rested the tip on the floor. Then I kicked the flat of the blade. The blade broke up by the scales. Most of the blade broke, but there was a flat of thin metal that didn’t quite give out on the side, so the blade just flopped back and forth. The same test on a cheap, thin knife that I found laying in the middle of a logging road had a thinner blade, hollow ground, made of some kind of non-stainless steel, with a plastic and wood handle. It easily withstood the kick, even when I repeated the kick harder.
I’ve found 1095 – done right – to be a great steel. It’s tough and easy to resharpen. But with a poor heat treat, it can perform worse than a cheap blade.
We all like to look at the various alloys of knife steels and try to infer the basic characteristics that the recipe foretells. It’s like reading entrails. But the ingredients list offers only a hint of what the steel is capable of. If the making of knife steels were as easy as adding the right ingredients in the right amounts, we’d have much better steels and much less to talk about. But steels are more complicated.
In his 1998 book, “Knife Talk,” Ed Fowler talks about the potential of 52100 steel. In a heat treat process of virgin 52100 that involved multiple heatings to the point where 52100 lost its magnetic properties and multiple coolings of various times and at various speeds, the grain size of the steel was dramatically reduced so that further heat treatments could deliver the steel’s full potential.
The steel was heated and cooled some more. Sometimes the cooling took days and was repeated. Sometimes the blade was cooled to room temperature. Sometimes the blade was submerged in liquid nitrogen for 24 hours. And on and on.
Ed found the process improved the steel’s cutting performance 300 percent, compared to blades that had not been freeze treated. He flexed one blade 180 degrees 6 and a half times before the edge cracked. A metallurgist examined the grain size of the steel and found it was the finest he’d ever seen. The carbide size was less than one micron. The carbides in D2, by comparison, are 10-15 microns.
The hardness of the blade’s edge was 58 Rc. The spine was 30 Rc. The center of the blade, which was annealed by not hardened, was softer than the spine.
So how good is 52100? Well what was the heat treat and what was the skill of the smith?
So is VG10 better than Aus 8? Could be either. I’d put more faith in Spyderco’s heat threat than Cold Steel’s.
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So would I. I do wonder though, does Cold Steel even have their own dedicated factory in asia or do they use a factory that makes knives for other companies as well?
Ankerson
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Ankerson
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Actually you could have just stopped after the above statement.
The HT and tempering process is extremely important and if the blades have been CYRO treated or not, and if that process was done properly or not.
But since neither company does their own heat treating, both use outside sources for those who didn't know.......
Keeping this from being CS vs Spyderco and trying to keep it to the steels, that being AUS-8 and VG-10.....
The VG-10 blades are made in Japan and the AUS-8A blades now are made in Taiwan, although they used to also be made in Japan, but then none of that really matters as long as the HT Process is done correctly.
Taken into account the variation of production heat treating, range of RC hardness and the steels themselves can and will vary from batch to batch, percentage of alloy content.......
There really aren't any real set in stone answers as the results could vary depending on the blades tested and since the two steels are pretty close in performance anyway it wouldn't be surprising if things did vary some.
But to just parrot one steel is better than the other just because..... Well that's not really a fact of any sort...
There is a huge difference in should and does, lots of variables to take into consideration along with bias and perception.
If one wants to see a real difference in performance then they need to move up into the next class of steels that includes S30V, CPM 154, 154CM, CTS XHP, D2 etc.
But if they stay in this class that includes 440 A, B, C, 420HC, N690, VG-10, AUS-6, AUS-8, AUS-10 and the alphabet steels the differences will be small.
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You put bohler N690co in the lower class? Man the Begg bodega is even more overpriced than I thought, lol.
Ankerson
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It's used in a pretty broad range of knives from kitchen knives to, folders to larger field knives to diving knives.
Very popular steel outside of the US and has been for a long time.
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Yeah im familiar with the steel. Many Italian makers favor the stuff. Im just saying that if the steel truly is lumped in the performance category of those other steels that I find it to not a a suitable steel for a $900+ knife. At that price it better be super steel.
Ankerson
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Big difference in Custom knives and production knives if the makers do their own heat treating.
In customs you are paying for the craftsmanship and time of the Custom maker so the prices are usually going to be higher depending on the maker...
I have seen some really nice customs in N690 1st hand and they do perform.
It's a great steel for Fillet knives, kitchen knives, diving knives or any type that will see a lot of salt water or be in harsh conditions.
N690 and N680 are great steels for those type knives and they do get used a lot in both customs and production knives.