Stacked Leather Handles and Narrower Tangs?

chrisaloia said:
Choices in order of preference:
1. Rat-3
2. TAK-1
3. Rat-5
4. F-1
5. Marbles Sport, It is the odd man out but there is something about a stacked leather knife with a oiled leather sheath that keeps it on the list.

I like all those knives alot. But there is one thing missing with them all.
Either they are a great knife with a crappy sheath or a good knife with a good sheath.

One key factor in this is have to keep the whole package under $100. I need other gear as well. I wish makers would not include a sheath at all but offer a few names that they would directly send the knife to to have a sheath made.
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Get a Randall. Best sheath, Best knife! I have batoned my model 25 countless times (almost everyday in the winter) its still strong as ever!
 
Most of my fixed blades have staked leather. You have to watch out for drying out, and if it is in a salt water enviroment, it is going to start to break down.

The former is easy- rub in the leather restorative of your choice if it is has been in storage for a long time, or if hasn't, just use it and your skin oils will take care of most of the oiling you need. The only one I've ever had really dry out is an old Sherade that had been stored in an uninsulated building for at least 20 years- neets foot oil and some TLC brought it back. In a salt water enviroment, all I can think of is maybe put a good layer of wax on it and buff it in with a rag, like you would with your boots.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Did the Ka-Bar tang have square shoulders?

(Moreover, not all users, or more than a tiny minority, are deliberatly trying to destroy a knife.)
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I honestly can't remember but I think it's called something with the word marine in it. If you go to Youtube and type Noss4 you can see many tests on Striders, Cold Steel and Ka-Bar. I am certain the tang is narrower and it broke at the tang knife in-between region. He did say this is a good knife but the tang is definitely without a doubt the weakest part of it.

I'm not criticizing Ka-Bar since it has been used extensively for many years by soldiers. I also acknowledge that there is a small minority who do unrealistic tests onto knives and later degrade them. However I would like point that Noss4 does equally hardcore tests onto other knives and they all failed differently thereby highlighting their strong points and weaknesses.
 
No worries on the knife you are looking at. Should do just fine for you.

The only Marbles knife I've owned is a 4" safety hunter folder with stag handles that was made in the 20s. Pretty good knife for it's age.

If I were going after a stacked leather handled knife, I think I would find myself a very clean Cattaraugus 225Q, Quartermasters knife. I really like how that knife feels in my hand.
 
Alot of people made some great suggestions, Like Randalls, and the Fallkniven stacked leather both of which are over the $200 range. Even a Blackjack is $150 or more.

I am ordering a RD4 by Ranger knives tomorrow. That is the absolute closest knife to what I want for the $.

Thanks to all,

Chris

I do love stacked leather. Maybe in the future I will get a Randall?
 
Oil the handle well, let it sit overnight, then wipe down it down real good, and slather a nice coat of brown or neutral, Kiwi Parade Gloss Shoe Polish on, let it sit 5-10 minutes, and buff it with a shoe brush, or flannel slap rag. Don't worry, it ain't slick, and looks GREAT, holds the moisture in, and helps keep shagnasty stuff out. Maybe, and I mean maybe once a year you can redo.

I like the Parade Gloss because it seems much harder, and wears better, but yes, regular wax paste shoe polish will work.

Beckerhead
 
Midwest Ninja said:
Then what about the tang WOULD make a knife weak?

Humor the ignorant.:D
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First, listen to Thomas Linton, what he says about the stress riser is true.

Second, just because there is less metal doesn't necessarily mean something is weak. It'll provide more flexibility, and that doesn't always mean weaker. Think of the way they build buildings in California. Stiff, rigid constuction isn't always the best way to go. I've got a lot of stick tang knives that get batonned. Some say the stick tang transferrs less shock to the hand. Countless designs have used this construction technique, and its tried and prooven.

There is another benefit to it also. Natural material handle scales tend to "move" based on the moisture in the environment. Often the shrinkage exposes the tang of a full tang knife. Fixing this problem often involves filing off the exposed metal. It can make a grip very uncomfortable. This isn't a problem with a stick tang as there is no exterior metal to expose.

That said. On a larger knife that has a stick tang I like it to be either pinned, or peened over the back end of the handle. For safety sake I mean.
 
Fiddleback said:
IMO, no and no. Stacked leather is very durable. And stick tangs don't make knives weak. JMHO.
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I hate to cite "knifetests.com" but they proved differently.

They bent and broke a Kabar rather convincingly.

It's hard to see how less material is just as strong as more material....

If a tool isn't used past a certain limit, then anything would suffice, up to that limit.

For example, Knife "A" has a stick tang and can only match, say, 50% the ability of Knife "B". If you never go past a 30% limit, then you'd conclude that both are "equal"............but they are not.

.
 
Testing to destruction is only viable for certain things. Testing for normal use is an entirely different matter. No knives made with stacked leather handles would survive nearly a hunderd years of use by generations of sportsmen, or war service if they were seriously weak in their design.

Codger's opinion
 
David E said:
I hate to cite "knifetests.com" but they proved differently.

They bent and broke a Kabar rather convincingly...

.
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What, exactly did they prove OTHER THAN as to that Ka-Bar?

Again, ask yourself if the Ka-Bar had a square blade/tang shoulder. Was the tang drawn or left at full hardness? Less than full-width tangs vary in strength.

Someone mentioned Randall (Let me know where I can get one for $200!!!!!): does Randall know what it's doing? Morseth? Scagel? Ruana? Loveless? Masamune? Muramasa?

In cold weather, an enclosed tang (which the Fallkniven F-1 has) is more comfortable in the ungloved hand.

(And I have full-width tang knives that I like lots.)
 
Codger_64 said:
Testing to destruction is only viable for certain things. Testing for normal use is an entirely different matter. No knives made with stacked leather handles would survive nearly a hunderd years of use by generations of sportsmen, or war service if they were seriously weak in their design.

Codger's opinion
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Thank you Codger! Finally some sanity.

Look, there's nothing wrong with a full-tang knife. You "stress test" fellas go knock yourself out, break knives till the cows come home. Go all "Cold Steel" on 'em. That's cool!

However, it seemed like it was just yesterday that someone said:

Marbles knives are pretty proven outdoor knives. I would imagine if durability was an issue, they wouldn't have been around so long.
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And today, a similar point was made by Codger. If these "traditional" knives were breaking in half all the time on people who relied on them for survival, why are they still around?

I'm not saying you have to like them, or own them, or throw away your RATs or Busses or Rangers, I'm just saying look at what history and use has shown to be true and give the "traditional" knives some credit for pete's sake.

Rant over.....Codger...I like the cut of your jib, my friend!
 
Some very interesting points have been brought to bear here and at the risk of alienating myself even more from certain factions on this board, a bombproof unbreakable knife does not make it the best knife. If you use a knife mainly for cutting and slicing and very occasionally subject it to light pounding and prying almost any design will suffice. If your main intent is to beat the hell out of it all the time then you might need to get a specialized tool for your particular application.

Personally I don't believe in an all around anything, if you buy something designed to cut effectively it probably wont stand up to use as a prybar or froe. On the other hand a froe will cut and slice but not nearly as well as an expensive sashimi knife. There are compromises, knives that slice OK and will stand up to some abuse, I would rather have a knife that cuts very well and improvise another tool or method of doing things than risk breaking it.

I have said before, and gotten myself in a heap of crap, I don't understand how someone breaks a knife of even half way decent quality, without a substantial amount of abuse or using it in a way it was never intended for. Chris
 
But at with the same steel and the same treatment narrower tangs are weaker. the question was not "is it sufficient in strength?" to which most narrow tangs are but "are they generally weaker?".

General everyday use knives are fine by most if you wanna gut a deer or cut some rope or etc but there are times when you need to baton (maybe you got no axe and ur in the woods and you need a fire). Ain't to do with the cutting ability or not specifically pointing out any brands. This is the wilderness and survival skill forum and batoning like how Noss4 does it isn't really much an unrealistic abuse.

History does confirm that narrow tang knives like the Ka-Bar are still reliable in everyday use I agree. But to some extent is it wrong to want for more? I want more out of my knife, I want my knife to perform to its maximum capacity. Meaning I want my tang to not be the weakest spot. I like to know (not necessarily do it, just know) that my knife can be subject to heavy abuse and not fail so easily.

Another thing is that the main consideration was the RELATIVE ability. Not saying it the Ka-Bar (for example) does not work but RELATIVE ability. I know it works well enough but that was not my query. No need to tell me if I need a knife for my 'insane' requirements to then go ahead get it, I know that. If a many brands of knives are tested until failure (should be done so to know it's safety limits and this is not idiotic) they may fail DIFFERENTLY thereby highlighting the strengths and weaknesses of any knife. Much like crash testing cars to know data. Like Volvos do well in frontal collisions and vans are shite in it but you'll pretty much die no matter what happens when ur in a mini...

Don't flame me, if you disagree then disagree. I just feel strongly about this that's all.
 
David E said:
It's hard to see how less material is just as strong as more material....
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You read into my post what you wanted to hear. I didn't say they weren't weaker than full tang knives. I said they weren't weak. There is a fundamental difference there.

And then you sourced a destruction test. Big deal. Performance is the key. If the knife performs, is comfortable, and reliable during normal use, then who cares how many foot pounds of force in a vise it takes to break it?

Go get yourself a Busse. It won't break even if you smash cinderblocks with it. Goody goody.
 
I have a 22# sledge hammer that can make the best Busse or Randall fail. If that won't do it I have a 110# pnumatic jack hammer with an asphalt bit. Any knife can be made to fail. Will it fail when used within the normal limits of your expected use? Otherwise, the "test to failure mode is achieved" doesn't have much meaning. One trick in knife useage to prevent knife failure is to use it with more skill than brute force. Some knives, granted, are constructed to survive use with brute force. I personally don't care for them and have no need for them. But I understand that others do and that is fine with me. Buy and use what you like.

Codger
 
Codger_64 said:
I have a 22# sledge hammer that can make the best Busse or Randall fail.

Codger
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Busse disagrees and would like to see that haha.
Point taken though. Everything has a limit. Some are more comfortable with lower limitations, I am not.

For the same reasons I buy the best tires for the car or seek out the best Dr's for health care.

I have seen a full sized k-bar bend and set 35 degrees with little effort and certainly not under abuse, quite shocking.

Tangs among many other things add up to a decent quality blade.

Skam
 
I am not comfortable with lower limitations either.

That is why I have found "the best" way to kill spiders around the house is with a 12 gauge.

Guaranteed kill!
 
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