stainless RATS

I will stick with carbon steel in any knife I intend to subject to any kind of "survival" use. My reasoning is pretty simple: Carbon is easier to work with in the outdoors in terms of sharpening. Whatever extra care I need to provide it over a stainless knife really doesn't bother me simply because I don't go into the outdoors nearly as much as I want to or should.

On the other hand, for my EDC pocket knives, I happen to like S30V. I don't have to have it, and in fact I don't know that I am so knowledgeable, fussy, or smart about cutlery steel that I can tell an appreciable difference between that and the 154CM that Benchmade uses in both my Griptilians. I CAN tell a difference between my S30V knives and my two Case mini-trappers that I occasionally carry about. In any event, a carbon steel pocket knife, while desirable from a edge maintenance perspective, is more of a pain in the butt for everyday usage in general than a stainless blade. The extra time required for sharpening the stainless knives is easily accomplished on my Sharpmaker in the comfort of my home (at least in theory. I am ashamed of my cruddy sharpening skills), and is therefore not particularly troublesome to me.
 
Condor uses 420HC in their stainless machetes as well. Shows you it can take a good edge and still be plenty impact resistant! :thumbup:
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Condor uses 420HC in their stainless machetes as well. Shows you it can take a good edge and still be plenty impact resistant! :thumbup:
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Amen. 420 is near perfect machete steel. It is very tough.

I will never understand all the hate for 400 series steels. I have used 420, 420J2, 420HC, 440C, 440A (yes, even the 440A in my Ka-Bar Next Gen is great in my book), etc etc etc. Guess what... they all work. In fact, some of them work quite well. They sharpen easily enough that they aren't a pain to work with in the field. They hold edges through a reasonable amount of work. The 420 steels are VERY corrosion resistant. They seem to take a polished, refined edge well. They are tough. I actually LIKE 400 series steels a lot more than most stainless steels.

When I look at the ESEE line and their use of 1095, I think a 400 series steel makes total sense for when they branch into some stainless offerings. In fact, I would have been surprised if they didn't go with something like 440C.

If you don't like 440C, don't buy a 440C ESEE.
 
PLEASE don't make ESEE knives in 440C.
I may have to buy yet ANOTHER if you do! :(
 
R.A.T. said:
The last time I checked 440C and 1095 had been around a lot longer than RAT or Rowen. Anyone knows that. Rowen, however, does have some proprietary heat treat processes for particular steels.
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440C done correctly is a tried and true great steel. I look forward to any knife you release with 440C

Bill
 
matthewdanger said:
Amen. 420 is near perfect machete steel. It is very tough.

I will never understand all the hate for 400 series steels. I have used 420, 420J2, 420HC, 440C, 440A (yes, even the 440A in my Ka-Bar Next Gen is great in my book), etc etc etc. Guess what... they all work. In fact, some of them work quite well. They sharpen easily enough that they aren't a pain to work with in the field. They hold edges through a reasonable amount of work. The 420 steels are VERY corrosion resistant. They seem to take a polished, refined edge well. They are tough. I actually LIKE 400 series steels a lot more than most stainless steels.

When I look at the ESEE line and their use of 1095, I think a 400 series steel makes total sense for when they branch into some stainless offerings. In fact, I would have been surprised if they didn't go with something like 440C.

If you don't like 440C, don't buy a 440C ESEE.
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As far as 400ss MY only bad experiance with them is 420HC. They chip very easy. IME. When cutting manila/nylon rope if theres and metal wire in there they will chip. I use Vg10 , 154cm no problem. I have a 440c but haven't fouled it up yet. Seems hard. 420 IME would be to soft for my use. I use my knives for work. My reason I hope they use a harder steel. Cutting flesh maynot matter. It's all how you apply the knife for your needs.
 
ironmike86 said:
As far as 400ss MY only bad experiance with them is 420HC. They chip very easy. IME. When cutting manila/nylon rope if theres and metal wire in there they will chip. I use Vg10 , 154cm no problem. I have a 440c but haven't fouled it up yet. Seems hard. 420 IME would be to soft for my use. I use my knives for work. My reason I hope they use a harder steel. Cutting flesh maynot matter. It's all how you apply the knife for your needs.
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mabe the 420 was too hard, not too soft.
 
R.A.T. said:
A lot of this goes back to Rowen's shop, availability of materials, types of heat treat required and a lot of other things figured into the mix. Like I said, 440C works. Has worked for years. It's a great steel just like 1095 Carbon is. We're known for simplicty and what works.
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Tried and true. Simple works.
 
R.A.T. said:
That's the reason I said I don't like ATS34....because 154 was mentioned. Why do I not like it? I have found no real advantages with it over 440C. When we first got on this SS research thing I started using various steels. I've had several knives in ATS34 that had chipping problems and just seemed to be over-hyped SS, IMO.
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I've had one two knives in ATS34, one was an Emerson Design Benchmade that looked like the early CQCs. I liked the design ok for it's purposes...never meant to skin with it...but the steel was really unimpressive as far as durability and edge retention. I'd take 440C over it any day.
 
dcycleman said:
mabe the 420 was too hard, not too soft.
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Could be. But I had a few different brands 420hc they will chip or roll. Maybe good steel but they chip easy for me. They are easy to sharpen or repair. Buy my other knifes just stop when the hit wire and don't chip. Guess if your using them for fishing or something they will work well
 
Jake Bauer said:
sure you're not thinking about Buck? I've had terrible luck with gerbers in 420.
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I am just going by my Gator clip point folder that I have been abusing almost daily since I picked it up back in '96 and more recently my brother's LMF II which has seen its own share of horrors.
It is just my own preference in the 400 family of steels.
 
BTW, when is an ESEE 5B coming out. Perhaps something more like a shorter ESEE 6 with the standard handle and blade thickness without the SERE options?
 
Just my opinion here but my RAT hasn't failed me yet with any of their products, and they have definitely sold me on 1095. Also Shon knows a hellova lot more about blade steels then I do, so I think I will leave it up to the brain trust to figure out what they are gonna do and use and then I'll just pick one up when they come out and be impressed with it
 
To a large extent, it's more about the heat treatment than the particular alloy chosen. I might like to see something like 12C27 or AEB-L used, because they don't usually have the large primary carbides that 440C can have, leading to edge tearout, carbide banding, brittleness, etc. But if Rowen has a lot of experience with 440C, and has a good heat treatment recipe for it, then that's what they should stick with for now. They've certainly proven that they know what they're doing with 1095. So I'd rather get an Izula in 440C, and compare it to my 1095 versions, before complaining about the alloy chosen. Besides, maybe they'll sell them shiny and naked, and save a lot of people time and money stripping them. :D
 
marantz said:
I might like to see something like 12C27 or AEB-L used, because they don't usually have the large primary carbides that 440C can have, leading to edge tearout, carbide banding, brittleness, etc. But if Rowen has a lot of experience with 440C, and has a good heat treatment recipe for it, then that's what they should stick with for now. They've certainly proven that they know what they're doing with 1095. So I'd rather get an Izula in 440C, and compare it to my 1095 versions, before complaining about the alloy chosen. Besides, maybe they'll sell them shiny and naked, and save a lot of people time and money stripping them. :D
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Now see, THAT is what I don't understand. You're FAR from the first person I've heard say this. Yet I've never experienced anything like this from 440C from several different makers. And they tend to see the most use, because they tend to be cheaper so I beat them harder. In my experience, 440C has sharpened better, held its edge just as long, and cut as well as any stainless steel I've tried except VG-10, and better than most, including ATS-34, ATS-55, and the old CPM-440V (S60V?).

440C has a bad reputation that in my experience does not bear out.
 
ironmike86 said:
Could be. But I had a few different brands 420hc they will chip or roll. Maybe good steel but they chip easy for me. They are easy to sharpen or repair. Buy my other knifes just stop when the hit wire and don't chip. Guess if your using them for fishing or something they will work well
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Some of that could be a function of the grind on certain knives. I was using a Dozier designed folder from Ka-Bar, which has a thin hollow grind on it, and when it ran into some wire during a cut, it totally rolled. My point is that the steel is not the only contributer for good or for bad. The grind matters a lot.
 
rockspyder said:
Now see, THAT is what I don't understand. You're FAR from the first person I've heard say this. Yet I've never experienced anything like this from 440C from several different makers. And they tend to see the most use, because they tend to be cheaper so I beat them harder. In my experience, 440C has sharpened better, held its edge just as long, and cut as well as any stainless steel I've tried except VG-10, and better than most, including ATS-34, ATS-55, and the old CPM-440V (S60V?).

440C has a bad reputation that in my experience does not bear out.
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One thing I've noticed over the years with 440C regarding the HT is that it's either great, or it's terrible...no "in-between".
If Rowen does their 440C like Entrek, it will be awesome. I never thought that 440C could hold a decent edge, until I had an Entrek.
I'm sure Rowen will produce an excellent 440C.
 
willworship said:
Some of that could be a function of the grind on certain knives. I was using a Dozier designed folder from Ka-Bar, which has a thin hollow grind on it, and when it ran into some wire during a cut, it totally rolled. My point is that the steel is not the only contributer for good or for bad. The grind matters a lot.
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I believe it's a saber grind or flat. I know it's not a hollow grind. But I guess I will do as others. I Will put my trust in ESEE to put out a quality knife . If they keep there good warranty that tells me they tried and trust there product like always. I can't judge it till I have it.:D
 
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