Standard Council Tool Axes versus Velvicut... worth the $$$?

B

bluesmandan

Joined
Oct 31, 2013
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I'm looking into purchasing a good axe, and am leaning towards those made by Council Tool. Their Velvicut line is presented as their best, and is much more expensive than their regular line (about $100 more). I've found reviews on the Velvicut, mostly positive. Not a lot of reviews on their standard line. And I haven't found any reviews that compared the two. Anyone here have experience with both of them, for an apples-to-apples review&comparison?
 
Is an old axe out of the question for you? A couple (or more) members here run ebay stores where you could get set up with a basic axe for less coin, that would probably be equivalent to the Velvicuts - you might even get something better.

For less money than the Velvicuts, Snow & Nealley is back to US made. You may have to shop around and specifically ask for a US made one in case the old axes are still in stock. I'd like to try one, but can't tell you one way or the other if they are good.
 
I've posted this before. I did a splitting test between a CT Velvicut Dayton and a nice vintage Michigan pattern Kelly Perfect. It was a draw.

KellyPerfectvsCouncilVelicut003.jpg


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Tom
 
bluesmandan said:
I'm looking into purchasing a good axe, and am leaning towards those made by Council Tool. Their Velvicut line is presented as their best, and is much more expensive than their regular line (about $100 more). I've found reviews on the Velvicut, mostly positive. Not a lot of reviews on their standard line. And I haven't found any reviews that compared the two. Anyone here have experience with both of them, for an apples-to-apples review&comparison?
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Today you gotta pay "the big bucks" the minute anything requires skill. Council Tools (far as I know) still makes USA-top-quality goods but the buyer decision as to whether to want a minimum wage employee to devote another 5 minutes of factory commercial machine time to 'fine tune' a blade (for another $20-50) has become a puzzle to me. Frugal and/or informed customers know perfectly well that they cannot make the steel nor form the head, but that they can create a first class haft and sharpen a blade the way they want it after the sale.
 
Double Ott, that's interesting that the scalloping made no difference. I wondered if they would. It just seems to me that they are always so far back in the cheek that they would never really matter.

300Six, I'm wondering if you're correct. When I read the specs on Council's page, the standard line and the Velvicut line seem to be tempered to the same hardnesses. The only differences I can find are that the standard line is from an unspecified steel, whereas the Velvicut is listed as 5160... and the Velvicuts are more finished than the standards are. Unspecified steel doesn't mean bad steel, though... and I have $3000 worth of sharpening equipment <cough> to put whatever kind of edge on it I want.
 
I haven't tried it but 5160 seems to be a very good steel for an axe. Council tool uses 1060 steel in standard axes heads.
 
About the 5160 vs 1060... I found this:

#6 Steel & Heat Treatment: Council Tool uses 1060 steel on most of their axes and 5160 on their Velvicut series. 1060 would be considered an ideal steel for axe heads and 5160 even better than that. Heat treatments shoot for a degree of hardness that is good for edge holding but not so hard it will chip if it contacts a rock. I suppose there is danger from flying pieces of metal, but the bigger problem is a chip can take a lot of steel out and essentially ruin the head. Whereas, if a bit softer, the edge will bend and deform which will require resharpening. But the total damage is less. Axes in the Velvicut lines as well as the Forest Service contract axes are more precisely heat treated so they can be consistently harder without crossing the line.

It's on this website: http://omahaknife.com/council.htm

I also found this:
5160 is a common spring steel, basically 1060 with one per-cent of chromium added to make it deep hardening. (It may still be selectively drawn with a softer back, if desired.) An excellent steel for swords, or any other blade that will have to take some battering. The choice of Jim Hrisoulas who makes some of the finest working swords in the business. Long blades are best around the mid 50's on the Rockwell scale, while small, working blades can be put into service at a full 60 RC. Forged blades with a well packed edge seem to cut forever! Rough on grinding belts. Jokingly called O-C-S, Old Chevy Spring.

That's from this site: http://sharpeningmadeeasy.com/steels.htm

From what I've read so far, the addition of Chromium to the 5160 increases its toughness, hardness, and corrosion resistance, all around making it a little bit better steel than 1060.
 
I own the standard axe, a buddy owns the Velvicut. Other than holding the edge longer I did not notice much of a difference. That was after a couple of 8in trees, and even then it was just a fast touch up. I will say that I had to put in some work on the first sharpening, his came ready to rock. But if you have the extra $100.00 I would be a fool to tell you not to buy the Velvicut. Hope this helps.
 
I just read that the Forest Service Axe is made of 4140.

So... 1060 for Council's standard axes, 4140 for the Forest Service, and 5160 for the Velvicuts.

I ended up ordering a standard Hudson Bay with a 28" handle. Should arrive in a couple days.
 
neeman said:
How good are the standard Council Tool axes?
What is the quality?
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I don't know... yet. Mine is scheduled for delivery Friday. They get mixed reviews... sometimes they have good heat tempering, other times not so much... sometimes they have good handles, other times not so much... hit or miss. Hopefully mines a hit and not a miss. But I couldn't justify $80 more for more or less the same axe, buying the velvicut.

Almost bought the Husqvarna forest axe, too, but it was $30 more, and made in Sweden, and I'd rather buy USA. If the Council sucks, I may buy the Husqvarna... reviews are very solid on it. It's a Hultafors. $80. But its a 2.25# head on a 26" handle. I really wanted the 2# head on a 28" handle. I was going for a light head that can be swung as a full size or a hatchet depending on the need. I've already got a 3.5# 36" Dayton, and I have a small hatchet (junky coleman that's useful for splitting small stuff). But swinging the 3.5# axe has been bothering my back (waaa-waaa) so I wanted something noticeably lighter. I looked at some 1.75# heads, but thought that might be too light. Went with the 2# head. It will be used for felling/limbing small stuff, no more than 8" in diameter, for firewood.
 
bluesmandan said:
I don't know... yet. Mine is scheduled for delivery Friday. They get mixed reviews... sometimes they have good heat tempering, other times not so much... sometimes they have good handles, other times not so much... hit or miss. Hopefully mines a hit and not a miss. But I couldn't justify $80 more for more or less the same axe, buying the velvicut.

Almost bought the Husqvarna forest axe, too, but it was $30 more, and made in Sweden, and I'd rather buy USA. If the Council sucks, I may buy the Husqvarna... reviews are very solid on it. It's a Hultafors. $80. But its a 2.25# head on a 26" handle. I really wanted the 2# head on a 28" handle. I was going for a light head that can be swung as a full size or a hatchet depending on the need. I've already got a 3.5# 36" Dayton, and I have a small hatchet (junky coleman that's useful for splitting small stuff). But swinging the 3.5# axe has been bothering my back (waaa-waaa) so I wanted something noticeably lighter. I looked at some 1.75# heads, but thought that might be too light. Went with the 2# head. It will be used for felling/limbing small stuff, no more than 8" in diameter, for firewood.
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I got my son the same axe for Xmas, and it is excellent as an axe, ie a tool. I don't know how good it is for the wall hanging showpiece set, but it meets our requirements! Let us know what you think. I think it is a great axe for a small person and a versatile combination of axe and hatchet for bigger people.
 
bluesmandan said:
I don't know... yet. Mine is scheduled for delivery Friday. They get mixed reviews... sometimes they have good heat tempering, other times not so much... sometimes they have good handles, other times not so much... hit or miss. Hopefully mines a hit and not a miss. But I couldn't justify $80 more for more or less the same axe, buying the velvicut.
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I've used two refurbed CT heads and they've both been excellent. They take a great edge, don;t have massive bevels that need to be taken down, and they hold their edge even if they get planted in a sandy stump or the ground. Chances are the newer ones are the same.

And just FYI, part of that extra cost of the Velvicut is a higher-quality steel, with a stringent heat treat, as well as a much higher level of fit and finish (including sharpening). The standard CTs in the hardware store up the road all appear solid and well built, but just a little rough around the edges. A little sanding here, and a little stone time on the edge there, and they should make for some very, very nice axes. If I were buying new, I would go with them hands down based on the performance of their derelict siblings I brought back from the dead, their country of origin, their very good price when compared to other offerings, and their apparent quality. I also like to tinker with stuff, so I'd prefer complete the fit and finish of the standard line with some sanding, sharpening, and oiling...the same as i would do with a vintage axe. Their replacement handles tend to be quite nice too, and I've used a handful of them and have always been happy with them.
 
My CT FSS Boy's axe from Omaha knife just came in ... literally. One second ago I was sitting in my cube with some coworkers admiring how nicely it shaved the hair off of our arms. Now to put it away before our CIH comes around.

First impressions - very sharp (had Omaha sharpen it). The head is certainly rough - not polished - not a big deal to me. It would take some work (plus paint removal) to get it smoothed out. The haft on these are supposed to be from the Velvicut line. Mine showed up with about 45 degree orientation but otherwise looking spectacular. I'll need to get it sanded and throw some RLO on it.

This is me > :D
 
5160 would be/is my first choice for an axe head with 4140 being second. They are both excellent steels. 1095 isn't too shabby either, though 1095 will have a higher carbon content. I have a few hawks in 1095 and it works very well for that kind of use or as steel for knives. 1060 is okay, but I would prefer 1075 if I had a choice.
 
idaho_crosscut said:
"splitting test?"

might as well do a "chopping test" with splitting mauls.
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Lots of us use single axes for both chopping and splitting. Sometimes an axe does both well. I split with a Dayton all the time. Smaller stuff anyway. For really thick stuff I'll use a maul, and then when it gets stuck I'll beat it through with a sledge. But for small stuff one swing of the Dayton and it's done.
 
Alright, so my axe came in the mail today. Pretty good looking axe, with a work ready finish. That means useable but rough.

The handle is good, but is only 24" long, not 28" long. What? Yeah, it even has a tag on it from Council that says 28" handle. And it is only 24.5" long. Uhhh. 4 inches off? What's with that? Even if I include the section that goes through the eye, it's still only 26" total. That's a little disappointing. Now, I don't think it's going to affect performance a great deal, but it does hinder using it as a full size axe somewhat, and puts it more in the hatchet realm.

The fit of the handle to the head seems good. I've only chopped down one small tree with it, so we'll see if the head works itself loose after a little more work. It seems fine for now.

The finish of the head is pretty rough. DEEP grinding marks over the whole surface, which the paint somewhat covers up.

The factory edge was okay but not great. I put it on my slack belt grinder for quite some time to get it shaving sharp. Please note that the edge was not "bad" but not great, and I had to grind a long time, which indicates to me that the steel has been hardened in the mid to upper 50's like advertised. I don't have the means of checking the actual rockwell hardness, but I've sharpened hundreds and hundreds of knives and many many different kinds of steels, and based on the "feel" of the grinding, I'm gonna put it in the mid to upper 50's. 56 or 57 maybe. Something like that.

As far as the heft of the axe... it takes a keen edge but feels wimpy on the weight. I think if I had to do it over again, I would order the Forest Service Axe. It has a 27" handle and the head is 2.25# just a little more length and heft. I think the Hudson Bay will be fine for me, but I would like the little bit of additional weight and length.

http://omahaknife.com/index.php?id_product=441&controller=product

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And here's the edge after I sharpened and polished it.
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