Startup freehand sharpening setup advice wanted

[jiggyfly16]

Question: Looks like Crystolon Medium is 180 grit and Fine is 320 grit. The Indias are 150, 240, 400 grit. What's the value in having the Crystolon Stones in addition to the India stones, given the overlap? Wouldn't 2 or 3 India stones cover all the bases, or is there some advantage to the Crys stones of similar grit?

They're both inexpensive stones so it doesn't hurt to have both. I personally think that India stones are a better beginner stone than Crystolon as it gives more feedback and the abrasive is less friable so it'll take a long while before you need to re-flatten the stone. However, it'll struggle with the higher end alloys since aluminum oxide is not as hard as silicon carbide. Crystolon will cover a wider range of steels (especially the coarser grits) but the abrasive is more friable so you will need to re-flatten the stone more often. Crystolon = more versatility; India = ease of use.

 

[P_A_S_1]

Question: Looks like Crystolon Medium is 180 grit and Fine is 320 grit. The Indias are 150, 240, 400 grit. What's the value in having the Crystolon Stones in addition to the India stones, given the overlap? Wouldn't 2 or 3 India stones cover all the bases, or is there some advantage to the Crys stones of similar grit?

Crystolon cuts faster, India leaves a more refined edge. Nortons sells a sharpening system (tri-hone) that uses 3 stones and the typical set up is coarse and medium crystolon and a fine India which gives the user the best attributes of both.

I have a crystolon fine/coarse and a medium india, I use water on them instead of oil.

 

[Father & Son Traditional Sharpening]

Lots of good comments.

OP,

I do not do woodworking, so defer to those who do. But, I had a Kitayama 8k and loathed it. It included some very coarse particles that would not soften even with prolonged soaking. I gave it a few tries, but it kept wrecking the edge on my straight razors. Changed over to the Naniwa “Snow White” 8k, which has been a delight to use on razors.

I am not surprised to hear of this. I have become a big believer in Naniwa stones no matter the price. I've found even the Lobster lineup in the 1000/3000 is a great bang for your buck beginner setup that will still do real good work in a professional setting as I've used them for this with great results. These stones have just the right binding to them as to really minimize burr formation without being very muddy.

 

[garry3]

This isn't the only way but I think it's the best tutorial on chisel sharpening out there, no matter what stones are used. He goes into hand, finger positions and arms, to hold the chisel at a consistent angle to the stone, a pretty good style to emulate.

I know lots of folks like the guides and there isn't anything wrong with that, whatever works for a sharp edge. Life is easier if guides are not needed though and a guide won't teach anyone how to freehand sharpen.

 

[nhobo]

Crystolon cuts faster, India leaves a more refined edge. Nortons sells a sharpening system (tri-hone) that uses 3 stones and the typical set up is coarse and medium crystolon and a fine India which gives the user the best attributes of both.

I have a crystolon fine/coarse and a medium india, I use water on them instead of oil.

Oil is a mess - water is the way to go. Add a drop of soap if you want, I never do.

 

[P_A_S_1]

Oil is a mess - water is the way to go. Add a drop of soap if you want, I never do.

I think oil probably works better but water is less messy and easier. I clean them after each use with dish soap and water anyway. I use my arkansas with a little less water and often dry, I find it works better dry although it's probably not recommended.

 

[garry3]

A little soap in water will act like a wetting agent (surfactant). No need to degrease a stone if you switch back and forth, and it can also loosely approximate the viscosity of oil depending on how much soap is used.
But oil works much better on the India and Crystolon.

 

[catspa]

I know lots of folks like the guides and there isn't anything wrong with that, whatever works for a sharp edge. Life is easier if guides are not needed though and a guide won't teach anyone how to freehand sharpen.

I agree Garry, but using a guide can get some results for a beginner while they’re learning. How many times have you seen it posted, “I tried freehand sharpening, ruined two chisels, and went back to my bench grinder”. Hopefully Tim will stick with freehanding, if he knows he can fall back on the guide when he needs it.

I rarely use the Eclipse guide myself, but I give them away sometimes. I’d like to think it helps the recipients get better edges for a while.

Parker

 

[Spats McGee]

I know lots of folks like the guides and there isn't anything wrong with that, whatever works for a sharp edge. Life is easier if guides are not needed though and a guide won't teach anyone how to freehand sharpen.

I agree Garry, but using a guide can get some results for a beginner while they’re learning. How many times have you seen it posted, “I tried freehand sharpening, ruined two chisels, and went back to my bench grinder”. Hopefully Tim will stick with freehanding, if he knows he can fall back on the guide when he needs it....

I never really used "guides" (except for the occasional folded-paper one), but I do have a Hapstone R2. For me, having an R2 meant that in the back of my mind, I knew I could repair an edge with the R2 if I well and truly monkeyed it up. That gave me a little more courage to keep freehanding, odd as that may sound. The other thing it did was that it helped me learn what sharpening should sound and feel like when I knew the angle was right and consistent.

 

[nhobo]

Good reference on waterstones here:

Water stones? shapton glass?

I looking for a few good water stones again and was thinking of the shapton glass stones. They seem to get good reviews but in my searching I found that they make 3 types of glass stones, a standard set, a (HC) high carbon, and a (HR) high resistance set. Anyone have any info on these or...

www.bladeforums.com

 

[Truesome]

I believe you have chosen extremely wisely, learning the craft of hand sharpening on one of the best value for money and proven stones over the decades, the Norton India.
Including a strop is also a good choice, it will help you achieve and maintain shaving sharp edges.
When you get to the level of consistently producing shaving sharp edges on the India fine, then you will be truly blown away with what you will produce finishing on the SP2000 followed by a light strop.
With your set up, you will be surprised how quickly you will master the craft of freehand sharpening and how much enjoyment comes from producing great edges.

Question: is the course/fine India combo Stone the way to go, or does the medium stone basically do the work of both? (Ie, do I really need all three, or can the combo or medium just do it all, given how tight the grit range is from course 140 to fine 400 with medium in the middle). I did just pick up a cheap soft Arkansas to cover that next 600-800 range and figure, for learning, India(s)—>soft ark—>strop could be a winner. I ordered each India grit and am thinking I really don’t need them all. (For now, stainless kitchen knives, pocket knives, chisels). Advice appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Truesome]

They're both inexpensive stones so it doesn't hurt to have both. I personally think that India stones are a better beginner stone than Crystolon as it gives more feedback and the abrasive is less friable so it'll take a long while before you need to re-flatten the stone. However, it'll struggle with the higher end alloys since aluminum oxide is not as hard as silicon carbide. Crystolon will cover a wider range of steels (especially the coarser grits) but the abrasive is more friable so you will need to re-flatten the stone more often. Crystolon = more versatility; India = ease of use.

Question: is the course/fine India combo Stone the way to go, or does the medium stone basically do the work of both? (Ie, do I really need all three, or can the combo or medium just do it all, given how tight the grit range is from course 140 to fine 400 with medium in the middle). I did just pick up a cheap soft Arkansas to cover that next 600-800 range and figure, for learning, India(s)—>soft ark—>strop could be a winner. I ordered each India grit and am thinking I really don’t need them all. (For now, stainless kitchen knives, pocket knives, chisels). Advice appreciated. Thanks.

 

[catspa]

Use the ones you’re getting for a while, develop some muscle memory, and get more if you need them. You’ll make a more informed choice after some experience.

Parker

 

[jiggyfly16]

Question: is the course/fine India combo Stone the way to go, or does the medium stone basically do the work of both? (Ie, do I really need all three, or can the combo or medium just do it all, given how tight the grit range is from course 140 to fine 400 with medium in the middle). I did just pick up a cheap soft Arkansas to cover that next 600-800 range and figure, for learning, India(s)—>soft ark—>strop could be a winner. I ordered each India grit and am thinking I really don’t need them all. (For now, stainless kitchen knives, pocket knives, chisels). Advice appreciated. Thanks.

The medium is more of a smaller step (if needed) in case the fine is struggling to remove the scratches of the coarse, although I never found I needed a grit between the fine/coarse stone. The soft ark would be good for practice with lower end stainless and carbon steels.
My old progression that did me well for a number of years was India coarse/fine combo -> Translucent Ark -> green compound strop. The edge off the strop was able to whittle hairs.

 

[Truesome]

The medium is more of a smaller step (if needed) in case the fine is struggling to remove the scratches of the coarse, although I never found I needed a grit between the fine/coarse stone. The soft ark would be good for practice with lower end stainless and carbon steels.
My old progression that did me well for a number of years was India coarse/fine combo -> Translucent Ark -> green compound strop. The edge off the strop was able to whittle hairs.

I’ve got the India combo right now. Just figured if all I’d need is the medium before the ark, I’d consider that instead, but maybe having the combo will be handy. If there’s no real need for the medium, I’ll sit tight with the coarse/fine before the Arkansas. Eager to get sharpening this afternoon!

 

[Spats McGee]

I’ve got the India combo right now. Just figured if all I’d need is the medium before the ark, I’d consider that instead, but maybe having the combo will be handy. If there’s no real need for the medium, I’ll sit tight with the coarse/fine before the Arkansas. Eager to get sharpening this afternoon!

Let us know how it goes!

 

[P_A_S_1]

The medium is fine as long as your not doing thinning, the coarse is more aggressive and does repairs/thinning better. The edge off the medium will be aggressive but with a stropping it's an edge that some may like. You can look at it as a compromise stone that does the work of the coarse and fine with the caveat that it's slower then one and less refined as the other. I use the medium india and like it, I see it as a different progression rather then a compromise when using a stone finer then the fine india (like an arkansas or ceramic). In the end it's personal preference and you'll get a good edge with anyone of them.

 

[Truesome]

Let us know how it goes!

Well, found an old pocket knife to practice on, and it came out much sharper than when I started. Success! Particularly loved the Arkansas stone. India is more gritty. Went slow. Got a burr on each side each stone and got smoother and smoother. I could have stayed on that fine Arkansas for an hour, it felt so nice haha. Anyway, thanks guys. On to more knives and tools! Tim

https://imgur.com/Vfl4ymn

https://imgur.com/bR24JPN

https://imgur.com/g0ZsEIv

https://imgur.com/8vP5kvj

 

[Truesome]

The medium is fine as long as your not doing thinning, the coarse is more aggressive and does repairs/thinning better. The edge off the medium will be aggressive but with a stropping it's an edge that some may like. You can look at it as a compromise stone that does the work of the coarse and fine with the caveat that it's slower then one and less refined as the other. I use the medium india and like it, I see it as a different progression rather then a compromise when using a stone finer then the fine india (like an arkansas or ceramic). In the end it's personal preference and you'll get a good edge with anyone of them.

Weird thing... I actually ordered all three India stones and a combo stone and will return what I don't want. The combo stone felt identical grit on both sides ("coarse" and "fine"). Both sides (sharpening surfaces, corners, and sides) all felt like the fine single India stone. The single coarse India stone felt significantly more coarse than the "corse" side of the combo stone. (Didn't try it out because I want to be able to return it since it seems suspect). No idea what that's about because I wanted to keep the combo. But it seemed weird, so I'll keep the two and return the combo. Does this sound odd to anyone?

 

[Spats McGee]

Well, found an old pocket knife to practice on, and it came out much sharper than when I started. Success! Particularly loved the Arkansas stone. India is more gritty. Went slow. Got a burr on each side each stone and got smoother and smoother. I could have stayed on that fine Arkansas for an hour, it felt so nice haha. Anyway, thanks guys. On to more knives and tools! Tim

Outstanding! As long as you are enjoying it and making progress, it’s all good. I’ve been using a lot of water stones lately, but I think I need to go reacquaint myself with my Arkansas stones.