Steel is steel is steel is steel...

[GoodGuy]

Bottom Line.... choice and the privilege to choose is a good thing.

 

[Vivi]

In the most absolute, Peaceful is right. Lets face it, who really needs the latest and greatest steel for most of what we do with our EDC's? However, our hobby is just like any other. Stereophiles will pursue the last % of harmonic distortion or power, yet in reality they probably cannot hear the difference. But, they know it is there! Shooters handload, rebarrel, & put in new trigger assemblies in order to increase accuracy, yet most guns will outshoot the average person right out of the box. So, we're no different from anybody else. We like to have the latest & greatest steel just because! Enjoy!

Hmm. When it comes to music, I spend my time studying the music itself. I do care about sound quality, all my CD's are ripped myself to specific standards....but I feel the music is more important to focus on. Same with skateboarding. I buy stuff that works for me, latest tech doesn't matter to me. Same with knives. There are all sorts of goodies from Spyderco and BM I'm interested in, but a SAK is what I carry most often and use more than any other blade. I'm all about using the stuff I get I guess.

 

[Phil in Alabama]

I like the newer tech steels. As far as SAK's go, I carry one every day for a work knife. The little tools come in handy on construction sites. But the blade dulls rapidly. I can open a box or two, cut a few plastic straps, and the shaving ability is gone. Cut a few more boxes, and the edges get so rounded you can scrub the blades back and forth over your arm like a saw without getting cut. I carried a Queen copperhead with a D2 blade to work one day just for a comparison, and the D2 lasted MUCH longer before any noticeable dulling. Even cutting up mud caked polyethylene sheeting laying around to put on brick bundles, the SAK quit cutting in minutes and began tearing the poly, whereas the D2 Queen cut and cut and cut. At the end of the day, both were dull, but the D2 was quickly touched up, the SAK required a lot of metal removal to be shaving sharp once again.

Part of the "problem" with some steels is that they are not heat treated to their capabilities. Steels hardened to 52 RC simply cannot cut as long as those hardened to 60, and that takes time and money to do, so you get a double blow against the less expensive knives, cheaper materials plus lesser heat treats. Mike Stewart at Bark River is using Sandvick 12C27 stainless for knives, and people are reporting the edgeholding to be great, even though it's a "low tech" steel. Bark River heat treatment is taken to higher standards than most for this steel apparently. As long as cost doesn't get out of hand, I will take a knife with superior steels, I like extended edgeholding time and corrosion resistance. What's to lose?

 

[DGG]

Phil -

You can lose a finger if you are not careful with Mike's Bark Rivers. I think they are way to sharp for the average knive user (of course nobody on this forum is average).

http://www.barkriverknives.com/

I like the "huntsman" model, the one with the blade guard. Scary sharp and will definately bite the careless user.

http://barkriverknives.com/gallery/album68

 

[kamagong]

We're knife enthusiasts. Steel is one aspect of our hobby. Our fascination with it is the same as computer geeks who want the fastest processor or camera guys who want as many megapixels as they can get.

I don't know if there is a causal or a correlational relationship between steel and my desire for certain knives. I may only pay attention to knives using premium steels. But then again the companies that use premium steels like Spyderco offer superior design and manufacture, in which case the steel is only an indirect factor in the choice of a knife.

 

[Jeff Clark]

Some of it is peer pressure. If I never found Blade Forums I wouldn't have paid much attention to the differences between stainless steels. Most of the time I was happy with carbon steel or with any vanadium carbon steel. Heck, the indestructable steel in bayonet blades works for most purposes even though it is only around 50 RC. From my experience throwing knives I always figured that stainless was brittle and only suitable for kitchen cutlery. Then I got here and suddenly I had choices to make.

One of the big reasons that I sample the latest alloys is my personal hobby of sharpening things. I am not tremendously concerned about the toughness or edge-holding of alloys, I want to know how sharp that I can get them. I buy a lot of knives simply to sharpen them. Since I don't mind sharpening I only need edge-holding for messy field jobs like skinning a bear or an elk. This is an issue if I am doing the job with just a single knife. Usually I bring a whole butchering kit so using a BG42 or S30V blade is still just a luxury. I carry one of those away from camp in case I can't get back. It's still an unlikely occurance that I would need that edge holding.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

Variety is the spice of life.

 

[umberto00]

Personally, I prefer the taste of 440c. VG10 leaves an "oaky" aftertase.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

"Good enough" steel is definitely around, and if you're a "good enough" kinda guy, then you can be happy. But if you really like knives and want your knives to be better and better -- for example, if you're the kind of guy who would waste lots of time oh, say, reading a www forum about knives -- then it's natural to want better and better performance.

A "good enough" kinda guy might just sharpen all his knives at 20 degrees per side, so he sees the same mediocre level of cutting performance no matter what the steel, and only sees marginal differences in edge holding between the steels. That guy probably doesn't see that much difference between 440C, ATS-34, and M-2. A bigger knife fan might take advantage of improved steel properties to drop the edge on a stronger, tougher steel down to 12 degrees per side, and he truly sees giant differences in performance between the various steels. And he can't wait until the next new steel to hit, because that steel will let him drop the edge down to 10 degrees.

In short, I do think there are "good enough" steels for those that are satisfied with that. Depending on what you use your knife for, and more importantly, how well you take advantage of the properties of the newest steels, you can still see nice advantages that keep you motivated to look at newer steels with different properties.

Joe

 

[Halfneck]

Nothing wrong with the older steels like 1095 & 440c.

There IS something wrong with someone bashing someone for choosing an older steel for THEIR personal use.

I'm not a big fan of AUS-6/440A. If someone else like it and it works for them, who am I to criticize. Sure, a better steel might serve them better and I can offer some as a suggestion, but to give them grief over it? Bad form.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Nothing wrong with the older steels like 1095 & 440c.

There are lots of things wrong with 440C as a knife steel depending on what you want in a knife, see for example Lande's and Verhoeven's commentary on knife steels. Note they are also not arguing in general for ultra-high alloy steels such as S30V either, in fact the opposite and would suggest a lower alloy content as 440C has issues with retained coarse primary carbides especially at low edge angles.

1095 gets a bad reputation mainly because it is usually left soft and often tempered inside its embrittlement region. It is the defacto standard for a lot of lower end blades, and you can't really judge the steel by those knives. It makes a pretty nice cutting tool at 66 HRC though I would prefer M2, finer grain, better wear resistance, much better heat resistance and corrosion resistance and similar hardness.

-Cliff

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

Hypothetically, if some super steel came out (I'm going with alien technology) that put the toughest, most razor sharp blades in peoples hands, which never needed sharpening, and never rusted, I doubt manufacturers would continue to fund new steel technology.

But as long as there is perceived room for improvement, and people are wiling to pay for it, expect to see new stuff.

See, that's just it: unless there is some breakthrough waiting to happen that will take us from Rc60 to some unbelievable edge-retention hardness that does not compromise toughness, I don't know what exactly it is we're chasing. (Some might point to the "Liquid Metal" panacea that seems to have stopped being talked about here.)

We have a need for various types of steel, that much is true. We can't have everything be super rigid because we still need filet knives. We can't have every knife be flexy because we still need combat knives and work knives. If we came up with a really nice, hard stainless that does what D2 does for people (it's about edge retention combined with sharpenability, right?) would people still say, "I prefer carbon steels"?

But what I'm saying is that we have those steels -- we have a rather prodigious array of steels for all categories and needs. So why did we feel a need to come up with S30V after we already had 440V. I have not seen a jump from Rc59 or so to Rc65 (is that on the scale?), so what are we gaining except freakin' confusion about what steel the steel-afficionados claim we really "need"?


-Jeffrey

 

[Joe Dirt]

I won't pretend that there can't be and aren't definite differences between steels of various composition, and each have their advantanges and disadvantages. Some are tougher but don't hold an edge as well. Others hold an edge but are more brittle, etc. Some are harder, but are less resistant to corrosion.

But honestly, I cannot really fathom why there is such a rapid rotation from knife steel to knife steel, on and on and on... Have we really not come to a point where the steel we have is quite good enough... just to be... knives? Are we still seeking "the right steel" as though there is some holy grail formula that will be the be-all and end-all? Isn't that impossible, anyway, because we'll need some knives to be tough and some to be hard, etc.? Don't we already have enough varieties to fill each kind of need?

The reason I ask, is because I remember what steels were "the latest thing" about a year ago, but having not paid much attention to it, I come back to knife circles and I see mention of about three or four new "wonder steels" and I think it's a bit of overkill...

Someone justify it to me, if you believe you can.


-Jeffrey

I agree 100%. I think the type of steel that a blade is made from is way over hyped.

I buy knives that I like and that will serve me well. If it has S30V, fine. If it has 440A fine. If it has AUS-6 fine.

I really don't care.

 

[EDCeeker]

But what I'm saying is that we have those steels -- we have a rather prodigious array of steels for all categories and needs. So why did we feel a need to come up with S30V after we already had 440V. I have not seen a jump from Rc59 or so to Rc65 (is that on the scale?), so what are we gaining except freakin' confusion about what steel the steel-afficionados claim we really "need"?

So you're saying that just because the really, truly, honest-to-God Ultimate Steel To Obsolete All Other Steels steel hasn't come along (Reardan metal, anyone?), knife-makers and consumers shouldn't bother to take advantage of what incremental improvements do appear? That seems to be your position.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

So why did we feel a need to come up with S30V after we already had 440V.

S60V required very high austenization temperatures which are beyond the ability of most knifemakers to handle. Fillet blades can be very flexible even when very hard if the steel is thin, just take a HSS blade at 65 HRC which is 1/32" thick and see how far and how easily it bends.

-Cliff

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

There are lots of things wrong with 440C as a knife steel depending on what you want in a knife, see for example Lande's and Verhoeven's commentary on knife steels. Note they are also not arguing in general for ultra-high alloy steels such as S30V either, in fact the opposite and would suggest a lower alloy content as 440C has issues with retained coarse primary carbides especially at low edge angles.

1095 gets a bad reputation mainly because it is usually left soft and often tempered inside its embrittlement region. It is the defacto standard for a lot of lower end blades, and you can't really judge the steel by those knives. It makes a pretty nice cutting tool at 66 HRC though I would prefer M2, finer grain, better wear resistance, much better heat resistance and corrosion resistance and similar hardness.

-Cliff

See, a post like this just lets me know that I do NOT know enough or follow closely enough all the things you need to be aware of to make "the right choice" of steel for your knives.

I guess I would either have to take courses in metallurgy and read all the latest journals, or simply content myself to have faith that the people making the knives know what they're doing, and I should just make middle-of-the-road choices in what knives to buy and carry and use. I just cannot dedicate the effort to staying on top of all the detail that it becomes evident is there to be known from a post like yours. For me, personally, it's too much to know, too much information to have to track down and keep track of. I have no way of knowing how fine the grain of my MiniGrip is, or how heat-resistant the blade is... nor do I want to have to become an expert in the field of metallurgy just to be able to feel confident carrying that knife...

I don't fault people who are so inside this subject that they do know all that stuff, it's just more than I can get into.

-Jeffrey

 

[peacefuljeffrey]

So you're saying that just because the really, truly, honest-to-God Ultimate Steel To Obsolete All Other Steels steel hasn't come along (Reardan metal, anyone?), knife-makers and consumers shouldn't bother to take advantage of what incremental improvements do appear? That seems to be your position.

Well, it just appears to me that there haven't been such worthy differences found. We do not have the knife-that-never-needs-sharpening, or the knife-that's-as-hard-and-sharp-as-they-come-but-also-never-corrodes, for all the switching from steel to steel that we've seen go on.

Modern steels are pretty good at taking abuse; pretty good at retaining edges; pretty good at resisting corrosion... but when we see knife companies switching year-to-year from 440C to ATS-55 to ATS-34 to S30V to who knows what else, I want to know in a chart-and-graph sense just where improvements have been made in exactly what facets of knife performance, and also what tradeoffs have been made and what may have been compromised in the switch.

What I was saying in that post is that short of a gain of say 10 RC points in a very corrosion-resistant knife steel, why are we tinkering around so very much and being so incredibly fickle. Everyone here has a steel that he used to love and now won't go within a mile of! Is it snobbery, or is there really something to it? When I still see knives in new steels listed at Rc 58 when I know I've seen others in older steels that claimed to be hardened to 60 or 62, I ask why we even switched. Can an improved, new steel be better at taking and holding an edge even despite a lower-than-the-last time Rockwell hardness?

-Jeffrey

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hey Jeffrey,

Just some toughts to share.

I don't think it just about "the newest and greatest", although that is part of it.

I think it adds depth to the study of the knife. After one gets past just the "look", and then one understands "ergos", and MBC interests have reached whater level they are at, "Depth", keeps interest growing.

Depth of blade materials includes; interest in forging, metallurgy, chemisty, what materials offer which features?

It attracts people like Cliff & Joe (and me) to communicate on that level of interest.

Verhoeven and Al Pendray did their Wootz testing at the Spyderco lab.

Tha fact that Vassili will chase down specs for a steel (& post them) or that Cliff will bother to test, and share, add real value to these forums, in my opinion.

It adds variety, like sushi, each bite is different, some like tuna, some like uni, some like rolls

And they're not only new steels. D2, M2 and other "older" steels are re-surfacing. CPM 3V & M4 (tough & rusty?) are getting attention.

There are many steels to play with, new and old, and as long as steel mfrs are willing to compete and "race" for the better performer, why not "watch the race", or better, participate

sal

 

[mr.trooper]

Never too many knives, sure, I understand that. But I may be less enlightened than many here, but I ADMIT to not really being able to detect such profound differences between, say, VG10 and CPMS30V, etc. It's very likely that I am just not immersed enough in it: I don't conduct my own knife tests, I don't beat my knives up, don't use 'em real hard and push them to the brink of failure, so maybe I won't ever see the alleged differences. But I am also skeptical by nature, and so I am skeptical that all the people who claim to be dissatisfied by 440C's performance and they "need" VG10 or something better are really on the level, or that they're not just "posing".

I don't mean insult by that, and I have no on in particular in mind, but I really do think that some people may have, along the line, jumped onto the bandwagon of being steel highbrows just to "belong"...

And as a corrolary to that, the steels that are around already really are quite enough for what we need.

I hate feeling like I have to stay up-to-date with the latest development in steel alloys. Can't my friggin' Mini Grip in 440C be all I really need?



-Jeffrey

I think your correct on every count.The only steels Iv ever been able to detect a difference between Cold Steels 420szq and Bucks 440C.

 

[db]

To be truthfull I have to admit I get and try new steels to see how they sharpen moreso than how much longer they hold an edge or tougher they are. I do like playing with new and old steels and am really wanting a stainless that acts like a simple steel. Finding hardness sharpness and toughness is the fun part of being a knife nut. How thin can I go with the edge before...? Plus a new steel gives me a reason to buy another knife that is ruffly the same as 10 knives I already have in a different steel.