Steel is steel is steel is steel...

[Ilovetoolsteel]

I have to agree with you Jeffrey, Here is the crux of it from my perspective. The new hottest steel changes as fast as it does not because of inherent deficiencies in existing steels but because makers in an effort to sell more knives hype the newest hottest steel in an effort to catch the customer who has to have the hottest latest greatest thing that nobody else has. Every group of enthusiasts has this type of person. As soon as the new hot thing becomes common they are on to the next new hot thing. The custom knife industry in particular is all too willing to feed this obsessive compulsive behavior.

Now think about who makes the best performing knives out there. People like Ed Fowler, What are they using? Carbon tool steels that were devloped before the second world war!

For some materials the sales pitch is always the same. This is the best new... It makes all other____ obsolete,
in 10 years they wont be making knives out of ____

Back in the late 70's early 80's there was a few makers using Stelite. There were stories in the knife magazines about how this was going to make steel obsolete. Here it is 2006 and the stelite revolution never happened. There is still only a few makers using it, no factory ever made a production knife out of it.

Then there was Talonite. Same song second verse. This time a few companies made a production blade. Still Talonite which was supposed to make steel knives a thing of the past has yet to even dominate the custom market.

Two or three years ago there was a cover article in blade about "Liquid metal" so far there are one or two people using it. Another miracle metal that never delivered.

Wanna know the funny thing? They are all nearly the same thing. They are just a cobalt alloy, some are cobalt and iron some are cobalt and chromium. with small amounts of other stuff thrown in. How much you wanna bet there will be another cobaly alloy to come out in a few years and the knife industry will dust off the same old hype?

 

[dantzk8]

In about 25 years we won't even be using steel knives. By then lasers will be perfected to the point that we carry laser knives instead of these clunky steel things we have today. They will never need to be sharpened

Bad new for me, I like to sharpen my knives...

dantzk.

 

[orthogonal1]

I was under the impression that cobalt alloys have real advantages, its just that the "right" one hasn't been developed yet. Cost, machinabilty, hardenability,etc. haven't met at a point that makes mass production sufficiently profitable (or something along those lines).

 

[Doug C]

Many times the advancements are trying to blend properties, 3V for example was an attempt to improve on the wear resistance of D2 and the toughness of A2 and do it all in one steel.
-Cliff

Any info on this attempt and it's applications?

Doug

 

[Joe Talmadge]

I have to agree with you Jeffrey, Here is the crux of it from my perspective. The new hottest steel changes as fast as it does not because of inherent deficiencies in existing steels but because makers in an effort to sell more knives hype the newest hottest steel in an effort to catch the customer who has to have the hottest latest greatest thing that nobody else has. Every group of enthusiasts has this type of person. As soon as the new hot thing becomes common they are on to the next new hot thing. The custom knife industry in particular is all too willing to feed this obsessive compulsive behavior.

There's no question that it's natural for a maker to use steel type as a differentiator, and moving quickly to a new steel is the advantage small players have over big ones, so they'll push it.

That said, I stand by my statement: most people who don't see differences in steels are probably not taking advantage of the steel's properties in the edge geometry. That isn't just for knife users; how many times do you see a custom maker who makes a knife with a choice of widely varying steels, but who doesn't vary the edge geometry at all? By contrast, I read an article by someone (Hossom, maybe?) who described how he improved his blade geometry each time he found a steel with better properties that would support the new geometry. If the maker isn't taking advantage of the new steel's properties and the user isn't taking advantage when sharpening, of course that reduces the effect of the better properties.

That doesn't mean I think all the "old" steels are obsolete ... for example, while I've enjoyed it as folder makers looked at the newer stainless steels, I've also been been cheering loudly as they experimented with old tired tool steels.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Any info on this attempt and it's applications?

I have not been impressed with what I have seen, had a Ferhman which rippled easily and chipped out readily, but the material properties still hold my interest. I'd like to see more data from Crucible though.

-Cliff

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Cliff,

On the CPM-3V, we have plans to make a "chopper" from CPM-3V for the ICCT ("International Cutting Competition Trail"). Warren Osbourne is using CPM-M4, Ed Schempp is using CPM-3V (that 's our piece), Scott Devanna is using M4. Gail Bradley competed with CPM-S30V, but I heard some rumors he's changing.

Some of these pieces should go production (sponsors). We'll be making our production piece the same as Ed competes with. Grinds and heat treat will be carefully controlled so we should be able to get some consistent and interesting testing.

on the "Steel is steel is steel"

Let's speculate that the "ideal" blade material is;

1 micron thicik
never wears
never breaks
never rusts

We try to find better and better materials to reach this goal. Steel is currently the best material. Competition between foundries brings us new combinations of chemicals, some not previously attainable.

More cutting horsepower (able to handle any geometry) is not a bad thing and not necessarily a "hype" to sell a new steel. Most of these steels are made in very small quantities, cost like the dickens and have long lead times.

Some are pleased to drive a basic auto that gets them from point A - B. Some prefer more power, or more room, or better sound, or more status, or more ? For whatever their reasons may be?

Steel junkies enjoy the comparisons, and achievements of their results. I believe most steel junkies can tell the difference between the performance of different steels.

"All good, just different".

sal

 

[db]

I'd have to really agree with the statement "all good just different". For exsample I really like AUS 8 alot it takes a really sharp edge and sharpens back to really really sharp very easily. Alot of people think it's a crap steel because it doesn't hold it's edge as well as alot of the newer steels. But for a stainless steel it really takes a good edge and I like it alot for what it is. I'd say it's probably my favorite mid range steel for now.

 

[Doug C]

Last knife I bought.Bailey Bradshaw's personal Competition Cutter.
Forged CPM3V.Talked to Marshall Noble and Steven who cut with it at Bill Moran's school in AR,Bail let them use it to practice their rope cuts.They told me it cut very well.

Bailey says it chews 2 X 4's.I haven't used it yet.

Doug

 

[Gringogunsmith]

Last knife I bought.Bailey Bradshaw's personal Competition Cutter.
Forged CPM3V.Talked to Marshall Noble and Steven who cut with it at Bill Moran's school in AR,Bail let them use it to practice there rope cuts.

Bailey says it chews 2 X 4's.I haven't used it yet.

Doug

Yeah.. I missed that one.
Wanna sell it since you aren't " using " it ?

 

[Ron Athay]

I certainly do not have the level of knowledge of several of the commentators on this thread, but I have owned and used knives for 50 years. My first "good" knife was a 1962? Buck Special at RHC 64.5. (or so the box said). Broke in half. Replaced for free. Got dull fast, impossible to sharpen. The steel in my new knives (A2, D2, S30v, 154CM) (all by respected knife makers) is an order of magnitude (yes I am an Engineer) better. The little steps of improvements have resulted in great knives. The last tem knives I bought would all shave out of the box and could be resharpened by my diamond sharpener (what no diamond sharpeners in 1960). I can now sharpent my 1962 Buck Special razor sharp. So will all you knife makers please keep taking tiny steps every year. Over time you have covered alot of ground. You keep improving, we'll keep buying.
Ron

 

[tim8557]

Kind of like Gillette having us now believe that it takes 4 blades to get a close shave. To some extent, it's about marketing and creating the "need" in people's minds.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

On the CPM-3V, we have plans to make a "chopper" from CPM-3V for the ICCT ("International Cutting Competition Trail"). Warren Osbourne is using CPM-M4, Ed Schempp is using CPM-3V (that 's our piece), Scott Devanna is using M4. Gail Bradley competed with CPM-S30V, but I heard some rumors he's changing.

I don't know why wear resistance would be highly sought after based on what I have seen in general for those events unless they added some abrasive cutting recently. M4 is designed essentially as a high carbon replacement for M2 when more wear resistance is desired. Even if the chopping and other impact work was removed so you didn't have to consider fracture failure I don't see the attraction of S30V as you should be able to run the lower alloy steels harder and get thinner edges and enhance the cutting ability and not be concerned about carbide induced fractures, I would be looking to something like L6 hardened so as to hit its torsional peak. It would be really interesting if steels like M4 and S30V dominated in that type of work, though most of the performance is from the man so correlating performance to steel would take quite some time in any case.

Some of these pieces should go production (sponsors). We'll be making our production piece the same as Ed competes with.

It certainly has potential as a steel, it has a rather peaked toughness curve charpy wise as influenced by soak temperature. I would also like to see the data on it tempered low, the moly and chrome give it a strong secondary hardening so it resists softening strongly, but I would wonder about the effect of precipitates. The low soaks give high toughness in thick cross sections (typical charpy samples) but large amounts of primary carbides might not be the best in very thin knife edges for heavy push cuts (chopping). It will be interesting to see what you come up with especially since you are working to a very high cutting standard, maybe it will be the large fixed blade equilavent of the ZDP-189 Calypso Jr. and we can all go out and level a few acres.

-Cliff

 

[Ilovetoolsteel]

I was under the impression that cobalt alloys have real advantages, its just that the "right" one hasn't been developed yet. Cost, machinabilty, hardenability,etc. haven't met at a point that makes mass production sufficiently profitable (or something along those lines).

Yes but that didn't stop people from Hyping them as the material that will replace steel (Three different times now) The cobalt alloys example illustrates a condition that is epidemic in the cutlery industry. It's the new snake oil!

 

[Ilovetoolsteel]

There's no question that it's natural for a maker to use steel type as a differentiator, and moving quickly to a new steel is the advantage small players have over big ones, so they'll push it.

Hype in the knife industry is the rule not the exception

That said, I stand by my statement: most people who don't see differences in steels are probably not taking advantage of the steel's properties in the edge geometry.

How much difference will the average person notice between an edge sharpened at 20° as opposed to 15° Will it allow you to slice a Tomato .005 thinner? You see what I am getting at? The only way you would notice is to do the same repetive task over and over again. Where do you see this kind of repetition? The meat industry. These people make thousands of cuts a day, the same cuts over and over. The meat insustry uses the same kinds of steels they used 100 years ago, They sharpen them same way, they use them the same way. The only difference in their knives is the handle material. If there was an industry that would benefit from advances in steel and edge geometry it would be meat processing, A knife that stays sharper longer, can trim finer would save meat processors money. Why do you suppose the meat processing industry hasn't taken advantage of all these super steels?

That isn't just for knife users; how many times do you see a custom maker who makes a knife with a choice of widely varying steels, but who doesn't vary the edge geometry at all? By contrast, I read an article by someone (Hossom, maybe?) who described how he improved his blade geometry each time he found a steel with better properties that would support the new geometry. If the maker isn't taking advantage of the new steel's properties and the user isn't taking advantage when sharpening, of course that reduces the effect of the better properties.

The problem is this, The end user doesn't cut the same thing all day over and over again. Differing materials require differing geometry.

Reguardless of the few exceptional makers and people like yourself who really do research in to making the best performing knife, In the end it's a business. A business where the majority of the so called "informed consumers" suffer from an obsessive compulsive need to be the first person to have something. The industry is all too willing to feed that need with hype. The industry will go to the extent to conducting tests of dubious qualities (like chopping up concrete blocks)

That doesn't mean I think all the "old" steels are obsolete ... for example, while I've enjoyed it as folder makers looked at the newer stainless steels, I've also been been cheering loudly as they experimented with old tired tool steels.

For the manufacturer, In the end it all boils down to hype. I'll give you an example. The Buck 110. They make it out of 420 hc now. They have made it from better steels in the past. If you buy one, nowhere on the use and care instructions will they tell you the reason they went to 420 was for ease and expense of production. You have "informend consumers" on this very forum who will swear up and down that because it is Heat Treated by Paul Bos Buck's 420 is better. Buck has worked hard to get this dogma accepted as fact.

The truth is Paul Bos doesn't have a magic wand. I live in Detroit, and this is the home of the auto industry. In the three counties surronding Detroit, there are probably 80 or 90 companies that do heat treating. They all heat treat high chromium air hardening steels the same way Bos does it. There ain't no hype here, The industry pays for performance. If you don't deliver you are out of business. No amount of hype will keep a bad vendor in business. Precise heat treating is not a secret. Neither is it complicated or expensive technology. This is by no means an indictment of Paul Bos. I am sure he is a conciencious and honest man and he has a stellar reputation among custom knife makers because of his business practices.

The fact is nearly everybody in the cutlery business does the same thing Paul Bos does. The only exception is some extreme low end manufacturers in places like Pakistan.
The heat treating process has to be done, the difference between doing it right and doing it wrong doesn't save you any money.

The conventional wisdom, despite all the evidence to the contrary, Is that Bucks 420 knives are "superior" because they are heat treated by Paul Bos. In the end Hype wins the day.

 

[Ilovetoolsteel]

Peaceful-

Don't worry about it! Be Happy!

In about 25 years we won't even be using steel knives. By then lasers will be perfected to the point that we carry laser knives instead of these clunky steel things we have today. Laser knives will be powered by small batteries with very long life. Laser knives will have a sensor to warn you before you cut something that is alive. They already are using such knives in the medical field. Laser knives will not be light sabers. They will only have a blade length of about 3.5 inches. They will never need to be sharpened and they will make incredibly accurate and fine cuts. You will be able to pinpoint the beginning and end of the cut, push the button, and the laser will connect the points and make the cut.

Anyone not agree with this forecast? Why?

Laser knives? sounds like a Dr. Paul Ehrlich prediction.

Why? Well when I was a kid in about the 4th grade we were promised "Flying cars" by the year 2000. Here it is 2006 and we are no closer to flying cars than we were when Henry Ford built the first model T.

The first rule of technological advance is You never replace a technology with an inferior technology. While Laser knives "sound" like a superior technology, The knife is successful because of it's simplicity. It's a simple tool that is easy to master, conveinent and reliable. If you are going to produce a technological replacement for the common knife you need to replace it with something more reliable. Can you immagine something with electronic components and battery powered being more reliable than the paring knife in your kitchen drawer?


Don't believe me? In your kitchen drawer there is probably a vegetable peeler. The blade has a slot down the center and the inside edge of those slots are sharpened. Pretty handy gadget huh? Do you know there are still people who peel potatoes and apples and what not with a paring knife? I grew up using a vegetable peeler. I used to use one till about 5 years ago when I was using one and it broke. I wasn't about to stop what I was doing to go buy a new one so I tried using the paring knife and it worked good, on the first try no less! After a few weeks I could peel a potato faster with a paring knife than I ever could with a peeler.

When you think about it if it weren't for peeling there aren't a lot of cutting jobs you do with a paring knife that can't be just as easily done with a larger knife. If a simple reliable tool like the vegetable peeler hasn't been able to bannish the paring knife to the unused tools drawer in your kitchen what chance does something with batteries have?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

How much difference will the average person notice between an edge sharpened at 20° as opposed to 15° Will it allow you to slice a Tomato .005 thinner?

It has more to do with the force you feel opposing the knife. Tomatos are not in general rigid enough to notice this because they don't exert wedging forces on the blade. You can see it immediately if you cut more rigid foods, stiffer vegetables for example, and even more so if you cut things like ropes and wood.

Mike Swaim did a lot of such comparisons on rec.knives and listed the times, number of cuts and such for various profiles. It can make a many to one times difference, it tends to be immediately obvious. Joe detailed the process on a Benchmade axis and noted the performance an angle and grit adjustement made on hemp, it is a change of hundreds of percent.

Mike actually worked in a fish plant which prompted some of the work he did on edges and sharpening to make his work more efficient.

Why do you suppose the meat processing industry hasn't taken advantage of all these super steels?

Alvin Johnston, a custom maker, has made knives for meat cutters out of very high end steels, the reports were very positive, you can read about them on rec.knives. The profile he uses also can not be ground on a lot of common cutlery as the steel is too coarse and the edge doesn't have the stability. He uses a lot of M2 as it is easy to obtain and has no heat treating complications as you can get it fully hardened to industry standards in power hacksaw blades.

Is that Bucks 420 knives are "superior" because they are heat treated by Paul Bos. In the end Hype wins the day.

There is a lot of this to be sure and that is one of the more extreme examples.

-Cliff

 

[sodak]

The difference is *huge*, and you can easily see it when you start varying the geometry of the knives. I like to thin down my slicers to the point where they can take some serious impaction damage on knots in wood, and some large chips out of the edge if you twist them out of wood. But try slicing with them - wonderful! As long as you understand the limitations, they are just fantastic, and stand head and shoulders above a less optimized geometry. The edges last a whole lot longer, and sharpen much quicker also.

And I'm hardly a sophisticated user.

 

[Joshua J.]

Originally posted by Ilovetoolsteel

The problem is this, The end user doesn't cut the same thing all day over and over again. Differing materials require differing geometry.

That’s why you’re supposed to carry multiple knives. I use different knives for meal prep, fine cutting, and regular cutting. Different steel, different geometry, happy end user.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

It has more to do with the force you feel opposing the knife. Tomatos are not in general rigid enough to notice this because they don't exert wedging forces on the blade. You can see it immediately if you cut more rigid foods, stiffer vegetables for example, and even more so if you cut things like ropes and wood.

Agree. The difference between 20 and 15 degrees per side is easily noticeable, IMO. The issue is that most people don't trip down their edges to see it.

Joe