Steel test results

Phillip Patton

Phillip Patton

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Jul 25, 2005
Messages
5,362
Awhile back i sent some steel samples to someone who volunteered here on the forums to run free tests for people. I thought you all might be interested in the results. Especially Samples 1 and 2.

Sample# 1

C 0.848%
Mn 0.39%
P 0.016%
S <0.001%
Si 0.16%
Ni 0.06%
Cr 0.23%
Mo 0.009%

Sample 1 is W1 I got from Enco. I wanted to know what the carbon content is.

SAMPLE #2 Admiral L6

C 0.634%
Mn 0.46%
P 0.014%
S 0.001%
Si 0.26%
Ni 0.74%
Cr 0.42%
Mo 0.111%

Here's what Admiral claims is in their L6:

C .75%
Mn .70%
S .25%
Cr .80%
Ni 1.5%
Mo .30%

Not very close.


SAMPLE # 3
C 0.444%
Mn 0.72%
P 0.007%
S 0.026%
Si 0.24%
Ni 0.06%
Cr 0.09%
Mo 0.006%

Sample 3 is some 1045 I picked up. I wanted to make sure it was 1045 and not something more valuable, because i can get a lot of it for $.30 a pound.
 
There is always a range for composition . L-6, C -.65-.80, Mn - .40-.75, Si - .10-.40, Cr - .75-1.20, Ni - 1.25-2.20, Mo - .20-.40, V - .15 optional. So their L-6 falls short of the real thing by quite a bit !!
 
mete said:
There is always a range for composition . L-6, C -.65-.80, Mn - .40-.75, Si - .10-.40, Cr - .75-1.20, Ni - 1.25-2.20, Mo - .20-.40, V - .15 optional. So their L-6 falls short of the real thing by quite a bit !!
Click to expand...


:thumbdn: My thoughts exactly. They're not even at the lower end of the range for a lot of that stuff. I wonder who makes it for Admiral. I hear they're pretty tight lipped about where they get it.
 
Here is how it works.

The far east buys north american ore mines, gets the ore out cheaply, ships it to the east, processes it shabily and cheaply and then ships it back to NA in a crappy form of whatever steel that drives knifemakers crazy. Some are so far off the mark in composition that they should actually make new names for them because they are certainly not what you think you are buying with the name that you think it is.
And then the unscrupulous NA tight lipped merchants inflate the price and sell it to their people.

Any questions?

Simple.:thumbdn:

Mike. Bah!
 
So much for "known steel". Can see it now "certified" 1095 $20.00 per lb. Then have to check the certification....well I guess it's kinda like that already.

Ramsey
 
It's been mentioned a number of times on this forum about the oddness of Admiral L-6. A good reason to buy direct from Crucible or Carpenter. Even if they won't provide actual lot analyses they should guarantee that it is within their specs.
 
I never liked the look of Admiral L6 in damascus, now I see why.
I do like the looks of that W1, fairly low manganese and enough carbon, should produce a nice hamon.
 
Phillip Patton said:
Awhile back i sent some steel samples to someone who volunteered here on the forums to run free tests for people.
Click to expand...
Who was doing free tests?
I have some 1075 CR from Admiral that I'm pretty sure isn't by virtue of it's hardening behavior (or lacktherof). I'd love to know what it is.
 
Using different steels trying for maximum contrast in Damascus; Devin Thomas and Jeff Carlisle, and a lot of guys testing materials found that 1.85% is the minimum needed in Nickel content to get good contrast. We have been using 15N-20 for its little higher Nickel content often 2% plus....Take Care...Ed
 
fitzo said:
A good reason to buy direct from Crucible or Carpenter. Even if they won't provide actual lot analyses they should guarantee that it is within their specs.
Click to expand...
i was just going to ask about that
man i dont like to pay the high CPM cost but least i can be mostly sure im getting what i pay for
right:(
 
butcher_block said:
i was just going to ask about that
man i dont like to pay the high CPM cost but least i can be mostly sure im getting what i pay for
right:(
Click to expand...

I don't think Crucibles L6 is made via the CPM process. It really wouldn't benefit much.
I figured out last night what the price difference is between the two.
I paid $3.40 per pound for Admirals "L6" and $1.94 per pound for Crucibles.
The only advantage Admirals has is it doesn't have to be forged flat.
 
JCaswell said:
Who was doing free tests?
I have some 1075 CR from Admiral that I'm pretty sure isn't by virtue of it's hardening behavior (or lacktherof). I'd love to know what it is.
Click to expand...

Here's the thread:
http://bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=393740&highlight=analysis

Seems like anything from Admiral is suspect. In all fairness though, the stuff they sell was not originally made for knives, but rather for stuff like springs, plows, stuff like that, where you wouldn't really care if it's not "right on".
 
Phillip Patton said:
I don't think Crucibles L6 is made via the CPM process. It really wouldn't benefit much.
I figured out last night what the price difference is between the two.
I paid $3.40 per pound for Admirals "L6" and $1.94 per pound for Crucibles.
The only advantage Admirals has is it doesn't have to be forged flat.
Click to expand...
ooo sorry i was talking about steel as a whole
i do think im going to have to stick with crucible steels even the non CPM types from them they are nice people to deal with and maybe the QC is better
while i have by no means used a ton of steel from them so far so good
butch
 
Well that's very revealing, Phillip. Thanks for sharing the results. I'd really be interested to hear Admiral's response. Personally, I think you deserve a refund and a darn good explanation. Short of that, I'd quickly lose confidence in them...
 
Well, even though the Admiral L6 falls short of the "Real" L6, it looks like it would still be worthwhile to add into a damascus mix over something like 203E, as far as improving blade quality. At least Admiral's L6 contains enough carbon to make a decent blade.
 
A sidebar question.....

So what you guys are saying is Admiral steel is sub-standard?

Admiral is where I bought my first batch of steel from on recommendations for this forum. At that time, Admiral was highly recommended.

(Since tone of voice is difficult to convey) Please don't take this as an accusation. I just don't want to make a mistake twice.
 
Kind of makes you wonder about the other steel at Admiral. I just bought one small batch from there 6 years ago. Mostly L-5 and a few of the 3/4" round 52100.
 
This thread has hit on something that I've been talking about for several years. The widening of specs on most steels. I've talked to most of the steel companies and what it boils down to is $$$ for them. In order to reduce the cost of production, most of the steel companies have allowed the specs to widen out. I've been told (by the steel compainies) that their major (read that to mean those who buy LARGE quantities) customers have not complained about it, and therefore they are making a larger profit. Obviously their not going to change until demands are made by LARGE customers.

I have spec sheets in my file cabinet dating back 15-20 years for various steels. When compared to spec sheets you get today, the differences are just crazy. 15 years ago the tolerance were usually within 5-7 points, today they can range as much as 10-20 points.

I've complained several times to specific compainies about this, and tried to explain how it messes up knifemakers....there response?... "Knifemakers are such a small percentage of our sales....we're not going to the effort and expense just to serve them."

Many of us have/are considering having runs of steel produced, but of course there are minimums, and the cost is significant. It's also hard to get several makers to agree on a specific steel, so it makes the funds issue that much more difficult too.
This brings up the issue of having "smaller" runs of steel produced. I have personally talked with 3 different compaines to this point, who's reps told me face to face (at shows) that they would produce a run of as little as 9,000 lbs. to customer specs. The problem has been that when I called to get serious about it, there was always some excuse about why they couldn't make a "smaller run" at the particular time. If I wanted 33,000-50,000 pounds they were ready to jump on it right away, but every one of them balked hard at anything less.

What's the answer? I just don't know. I do believe that quality steel is going to cost us a premium, and if we want to pay lower prices, then we're going to have to deal with the headaches that come along with the cheaper steel.
 
Now that we know what's in the Admiral L6, what would be the best way to heat treat it? Would it still be considered deep hardening? And with a lower carbon content it would need lower tempering temps, right. Yesterday I chopped some wood with a blade I'd made of this stuff, and the edge deformed. I quenched the blade in a slow oil and tempered it at 400 F.
So I'm wondering, with the same manganese as 1095 would it have the same quench speed, or is there still enough chromium and moly to slow it down?
 
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