stick tang durability?

The Roman gladius, the Saxon Scamasax, the Viking sword, the baselard, the Dao, the jian, all had stick tangs and men trusted there lives to them.
 
bikermikearchery said:
The Roman gladius, the Saxon Scamasax, the Viking sword, the baselard, the Dao, the jian, all had stick tangs and men trusted there lives to them.
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Mike, yeah...they trusted their lives to them, and see?..... where are they now!?:D
In case you see any of those Saxons running around, call me, I've got my full-tang Bravo-1! Let me at 'em!
 
witchhunter, thanks for linking that, I hadn't read it before. I think it's a very good, reasonable article, and it basically boils down to:

Nobody is “Right” or “Wrong” in this issue; it’s more a matter of personal preference...
Correct technique while batoning makes it a safe and practical way of
splitting wood; get sloppy and it’s a very effective way of breaking knives.
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Don't stop at those two quotes though guys, the whole article is worth reading at least once. They not only test well, they explain the various terms well :thumbup: (although someone should have told the author that punctuation is free :rolleyes:)

Personally, I'm still curious to learn more about whether a narrow hidden tang is stronger than a full tang, when bashing it on the butt, point-first into a piece of tough hard wood, as Mr. Goddard seems to say. I frankly have a hard time believing that full-tang knives, secured with modern epoxies and a couple pins, with or without rear bolsters/buttcap, are inherently weaker. (assuming the handle material itself is the same.)

I have a Ka-Bar with mortised pakkawood handle (held on only with super glue, NO pins, end of the tang showing) that I have literally tried to break this way, and couldn't. I've whacked it with a baton into logs with no ill effect at all; although I confess I wasn't "super" rough on it because the tip of the knife is so thin. (I did not use a 4# hammer.) I've used its butt to hammer both aluminum and plastic tent pegs into hard-packed gravel many times... no cracking in the knife's handle ever, at all, none. (If you've ever worked with diamondwood/pakkawood, you know it can be susceptible to chipping and splitting along its grain, under stress.) I bent many aluminum pegs and broke a few plastic ones, though. I feel this is a pretty fair approximation of the abuse a survival/woodcraft knife should be able to withstand.

I suspect that the exposed part of the tang absorbed a lot of the shock, and the steel was of sufficient quality to shrug it off. Maybe it would have split the handle if the tang was enclosed and the stress came between the stabilized laminated wood and the steel inside it; I think that would be a heckuva lot more likely than if it was full-tang. Comments?
 
Troop said:
Mike, yeah...they trusted their lives to them, and see?..... where are they now!?:D
In case you see any of those Saxons running around, call me, I've got my full-tang Bravo-1! Let me at 'em!
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I picked just a hand full of blades from diverse coutures from around the world that spread there influences to other cultures and were successful. those Saxons are still with us. I'm of Saxon decent and if they hadn't of survived then I wouldn't be here. The Vikings spread from Scandinavia south to the Mediterranean and east to the middle of Russia. The Romans most of Europa and north Africa. The Chinese Well thats a big area already. The point being that most cultures all around the world used stick tangs Or a stub tang and they are incredibly strong. In fact in my research I could only fond one Historical sword that had a full tang (Grossmesser). The reason for a stick tang is more a results of the forging process But the fact is they work. Could you imagine what would happen to the smith if the surviving solderers came running home with broken swords.
A 5" x 3/16" piece of hot rolled mild steel takes over 160lbs to bend to 90 degrees. A 5" x 1/4" takes over 300lbs for same bend. most knife tangs are more substantial than that, of better steel, and tapered. I know these numbers Because I have bent nails,(60d= 5"x1/4") with my hands at strongman events. When I want to put a curve in a tang of a knife that I'm making I have to use heat and a big hammer.
 
"...I frankly have a hard time believing that full-tang knives, secured with modern epoxies and a couple pins, with out without rear bolsters/buttcap, are inherently weaker. (assuming the handle material itself is the same.)"
:mad: I'm with you Gibson....I don't believe it for a minute. It just doesn't make sense.
 
BTW I'm NOT saying hidden-tang knives aren't plenty strong, if made right. Bikermikearchery illustrated that pretty well. Just want to clear that up; I think both styles can be excellent.

It's a matter of choice, preference, and the skill/knowledge of the maker.
 
Perhaps some of it has to do with heat treatment? Looking at it from that angle, some makers HT the tang full hard and temper, some leave the tang dead soft, others yet maybe use a torch and spring temper. All of which could affect the outcome when beating on a knife. Just a thought. -Matt-
 
bikermikearchery said:
I picked just a hand full of blades from diverse coutures from around the world that spread there influences to other cultures and were successful. those Saxons are still with us. I'm of Saxon decent and if they hadn't of survived then I wouldn't be here. The Vikings spread from Scandinavia south to the Mediterranean and east to the middle of Russia. The Romans most of Europa and north Africa. The Chinese Well thats a big area already. The point being that most cultures all around the world used stick tangs Or a stub tang and they are incredibly strong. In fact in my research I could only fond one Historical sword that had a full tang (Grossmesser). The reason for a stick tang is more a results of the forging process But the fact is they work. Could you imagine what would happen to the smith if the surviving solderers came running home with broken swords.
A 5" x 3/16" piece of hot rolled mild steel takes over 160lbs to bend to 90 degrees. A 5" x 1/4" takes over 300lbs for same bend. most knife tangs are more substantial than that, of better steel, and tapered. I know these numbers Because I have bent nails,(60d= 5"x1/4") with my hands at strongman events. When I want to put a curve in a tang of a knife that I'm making I have to use heat and a big hammer.
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Bro',...listen. I know that a lot of cultures, even those that survived, used stick-tangs. O.K., that's great. I hope that they were very happy with them.
But, I'm not buying for even one minute that stick tangs are stronger than full tangs. It's just common sense; there's more steel in a full tang than in a stick tang. I'm not saying that stick tangs aren't strong, I'm just saying that full tangs are stronger.
 
Troop said:
"...I frankly have a hard time believing that full-tang knives, secured with modern epoxies and a couple pins, with out without rear bolsters/buttcap, are inherently weaker. (assuming the handle material itself is the same.)"
:mad: I'm with you Gibson....I don't believe it for a minute. It just doesn't make sense.
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Its not weaker, its just the issue of a full tang is overrated. Your just not going to break a tang on a knife unless it was made by the worst knife maker in the world and your giving it a good beating.
I used to make full tang knives because I was taught that it was stronger. Well after 35 years of knife making I figured out that that was not necessarily the truth.
AND I get to use modern materials, epoxies too.
 
grease-man said:
Perhaps some of it has to do with heat treatment?
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Absolutely! As an extreme example, regardless of design/construction, if the blade or tang is fully hardened to 62 rockwellC or so, it's going to be brittle as heck. Like a good file, it will cut like the dickens but snap easily under stress. Even tempered back as good knives are, the tang is still pretty darn brittle, and not good for withstanding shock. Whack the sharp edge of your favorite knife on another piece of hardened, tempered steel and you won't like what happens. Regardless of the tang's shape, I prefer it to be tempered softer/tougher than the blade. This seems like common sense to me.

For the purpose of this discussion, I assume the steel, HT, and handle material are the same, for the sake of honest comparison.

This is one of several reasons why I prefer high-carbon steels over stainless, especially for big/long knives. Regardless of design, stainless is (almost?) impossible to differentially HT. You can't make a hard edge and tough spine/tang on 440C or BG-42 or "XYZ-2000 Hi-Sharpenium Soooper Steel" as far as I know. For that reason alone, I would never choose a full-tang, big-ass S30V chopper over a narrow-tang, differentially-hardened 1095 one. In fact, I don't think anyone bothers making a big bowie or camp knife out of hardcore stainless, they know better.

Of course, now I've diverged into steel vs. steel and that's a whole different can of worms :) Sorry about that, I just like discussing this stuff and trying to learn as I go.

bikermikearchery said:
I used to make full tang knives because I was taught that it was stronger. Well after 35 years of knife making I figured out that that was not necessarily the truth.
AND I get to use modern materials, epoxies too.
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That's a pretty reasonable philosophy.

I'm yet to be convinced that less steel in the tang is somehow better than more steel, toughness-wise. Perhaps Mr. Goddard had a couple beers in him when he wrote that, it was misquoted, or else I'm just misunderstanding his words.

I think Troop's position, that stick tangs are strong but full tangs are stronger, is pretty damn hard to refute. BUT I wholeheartedly accept that a well-made narrow tang is lighter, uses less material, likely balances better, and can be just as tough for all practical purposes.

Perhaps we could get into a discussion about the cost-effectiveness of building either style... I'm sure there's enough sacred cows and straw dogs in that to have a pretty good ruckus :D
 
I wondered about that myself even as I typed it out from the book. I've looked since, and nowhere in the book does he give his reasoning behind the statement "I'd never try it with a slab-handled full tang knife." Though in itself, that would imply that he's never actually done it with a full tang knife.

Personally, I agree with Gibson and Troop; though a correctly made narrow tang is certainly plenty strong enough for practical use, there's just no refuting a full tang is logically stronger. Heck, I've hammered on the butt end of my AUCK (full tang) with a baton, to pound it into an oak tree, with no problems whatsoever. Speaking of which, that reminds me of a thread I keep meaning to make...
 
I gotta say it guys, and I think this is just gonna start things up again, but a stick is in now way stronger than a full tang, that obvious guys, no dobut. Now, thats not to say a stick tang inst stong, and denpending on who uses it, it could be a more usful knife.
 
This was really eating at me, so I just e-mailed Wayne and asked him if he would enlighten us as to the logic. I'll post his reply when I get it. -Matt-
 
I find it extremely hard to believe a narrow tang is in any way stronger than a real full tang. Lighter, yes, and functional enough, yes - but I don't see how it could be stronger, provided both tangs are properly made.
 
grease-man said:
This was really eating at me, so I just e-mailed Wayne and asked him if he would enlighten us as to the logic. I'll post his reply when I get it. -Matt-
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Cool! That would be great because everything else in that book, makes sense to me. :thumbup: That's the only part that really made me go "Huh?"
 
I do trust the strength of my stick tang knives, my Kabar is a fine knife and lately i've been using Moras a lot and have been greatly impressed with them.

I think the merits/necessity of a full width tang have been exaggerated to the point where it has almost become a fetish ("oooooh FULL TANG!" lol).
It certainly is an effective selling tool, right up there with the idea that the Minimum blade thickness should be 3/16's or 1/4 inch or even thicker.

But yeah that "stick tang is stronger than full tang" idea also seems counterintuitive to me. It just seems to be common sense that a wider fuller tang would offer some increase in strength.

One of the advantages with a full width tang is the fact that "what you see is what you get". I've bough a few knives that were advertised as full hidden tang, that upon later examination (caused by broken/wobbly handles) turned out to be half tangs or even worse a kinda "nub" tang with a thin soft metal rod welded to it.
 
lol tholiver! i read about the guy who decided to rehandle his cold steel laredo bowie only to find out that it had a partial tang with a wire wound around it for the remainder. talk about cutting corners:barf:

gibsonfan, about your point on big-ass S30V stainless choppers. i bought a strider pab because i thought it looked really useful being lightweight and fast. after receiving it i found it was 1/4 thick with a taper starting in front of the guard running clear to the point to about 1/16 thick. this gave the knife a very weird balance point for a chopper and considering the reputation of
S30V being brittle i never used it. this was more like a poorly designed short machete with an uncomfortable handle than a dedicated big chopper. i should try and sell it someday
 
Grease-man, good deal! Definitely let us know his response. I was thinking about asking him at BLADE, but I'm not sure I'll be able to make it.
 
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