Stop Pins

[Spey]

QUOTE: Blues Bender
I've disassembled and own numerous knives with hidden stops, never had a problem. One of the knives I've used most has one, and it's fine. I use my knives with common sense though, never needed to baton or spinewhack something

Also, the pic of the Southard is a knife that was defective which Sal replaced. There was a thread on that, didn't you read it?

So... how can you debate this without any evidence?
The Southard is not evidence
END-QUOTE: Blues Bender


I would appreciate if you would post a link to that thread (or PM me), as I am interested in reading about the specifics. I personally stayed away from this model for various reasons, but still like to have open mind when it comes to learning.

Regards,

 

[Spey]

This thread got me to wondering ..., why current day manufactures have chosen to do enclosed/blind stop-pins by pocket milling the blade tange vs. the liners?

I understand that early versions (pocket milled liner option) could create issues related to tip-down pocket-clip mounting that was more typical then (too much stuff going on in the pivot area), not enough material to also include pocket-clip fasteners (for common tip-down orientation mounting), but since those earlier designs (pocket-milled-liner blind-stop-pins with stop-pin in blade tange area) the industry really began a new phase of flipper designs where in my mind the whole tip-up carry orientation seems better suited (tip-up pocket-clip mounting at pommel-end with finger indexing the flipper at pocket-draw).

Tip-up means the clip mounting (at pommel-end) would not interfere with anything in the pivot area, thereby giving space to include slotted pockets in the liners, and a simple stop-pin in the blade tange.

It would seem this could inherently be a better/stronger design concept ...? Curious ...?

Regards,

 

[Mick_1KRR]

So you know better than Chris Reeve?

Did i say that? No. But look at every single sebenza, i bet you $1000 that every stop pin has flat spots in it, go and turn it in the light gently and see them. Now go look at a knife with a curved cutout in the tang for the stop pin impact, you wont find the same flat spots. The sebs are great, but they all get dented stop pins because the curve is not large enough where the impact takes place. Chris Reeve stated it himself that it creates flat spots and later lockup. Don't see why you had to post a sassy smart little remark like that either bud.

 

[Mick_1KRR]

I just had a closer look at my 21s. Both the large and small have a slight curve to the tang which nests with the stop pin on an arc--subtle, but it doesn't seem to be quite the case of a flat tang impacting on a round pin...

-Brett

Yeah that's correct, there is a very slight curve to the tang i've seen it all on the sebs i've had. Unfortunately it's not quite large enough to distribute the force to the rounded part of the pin tho, if it was a more pronounced curve it would work great, maybe they'll add it in future. It's not a huge deal anyways, just a slight change that could be an improvement.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

Did i say that? No. But look at every single sebenza, i bet you $1000 that every stop pin has flat spots in it, go and turn it in the light gently and see them.

I just did this with a 10x jewlers loupe and it looks fine. As someone else pointed out, the blade tang has a radius that hugs the stop pin. My Sebenza and my Thorburn L51 (internal stop pin) are my most used knives and they work completely fine. I'd even say that I push the limits of my knives much more than the average collector, being that I regularly use a folder while working in construction.

But what do I know I'm just some guy who uses high end knives for heavy duty use

 

[Mick_1KRR]

I just did this with a 10x jewlers loupe and it looks fine. As someone else pointed out, the blade tang has a radius that hugs the stop pin. My Sebenza and my Thorburn L51 (internal stop pin) are my most used knives and they work completely fine. I'd even say that I push the limits of my knives much more than the average collector, being that I regularly use a folder while working in construction.

But what do I know I'm just some guy who uses high end knives for heavy duty use

Well my friend you're in the minority and lucky as well, i've owned sebs and handled friends sebs (neither of us flick our sebs out) and they still have flat spots on the stop pins, they're small, but they are there clear as mud. The seb stop pin was changed during production (from the one with grooves to without) so perhaps it only occurs on earlier sebs, but it does happen and that's just a fact, words straight out of Chris Reeves mouth. I'm not really a fan of using frame locks for heavy duty use, i value my fingers too much, i'd take a triad or axis lock for any use other than normal cutting. But if it's working for ya then sweet

 

[johnnytoxin]

Did i say that? No. But look at every single sebenza, i bet you $1000 that every stop pin has flat spots in it, go and turn it in the light gently and see them. Now go look at a knife with a curved cutout in the tang for the stop pin impact, you wont find the same flat spots. The sebs are great, but they all get dented stop pins because the curve is not large enough where the impact takes place. Chris Reeve stated it himself that it creates flat spots and later lockup. Don't see why you had to post a sassy smart little remark like that either bud.

Your comments suggest that you could improve upon his design. That's why I said what I said. If it were really an issue, I believe he would have changed it by now.

 

[Mick_1KRR]

Your comments suggest that you could improve upon his design. That's why I said what I said. If it were really an issue, I believe he would have changed it by now.

Not sure if you're trying to argue a point for the sake of it? Regardless of weather it causes an issue large enough to be noticeable short term is completely irrelevant. The fact is - it would improve on his design, that's just a fact. Why get so defensive over it? i'm not claiming i'm better at knife design that CRK, that's rubbish, cos i'm not. You're sitting there trying to argue that a curved section of steel for the stop pin impact wouldn't be better to absorb the pressure of silly people who insist on wrist flicking their sebenzas? if so then there's just no getting through to you mate, i didn't say the absence of the curved cutout would make the knife fall to pieces because of tiny flat spots, obviously sebenzas have been around forever, i like them too. Maybe since it doesn't cause a huge issue they didn't justify the costs of changing a working design? Whatever the reason it doesn't change the fact that any knife design could be improved regardless of the maker. No reason to be defensive about it, its straight up engineering common sense.

 

[johnnytoxin]

Not sure if you're trying to argue a point for the sake of it? Regardless of weather it causes an issue large enough to be noticeable short term is completely irrelevant. The fact is - it would improve on his design, that's just a fact. Why get so defensive over it? i'm not claiming i'm better at knife design that CRK, that's rubbish, cos i'm not. You're sitting there trying to argue that a curved section of steel for the stop pin impact wouldn't be better to absorb the pressure of silly people who insist on wrist flicking their sebenzas? if so then there's just no getting through to you mate, i didn't say the absence of the curved cutout would make the knife fall to pieces because of tiny flat spots, obviously sebenzas have been around forever, i like them too. Maybe since it doesn't cause a huge issue they didn't justify the costs of changing a working design? Whatever the reason it doesn't change the fact that any knife design could be improved regardless of the maker. No reason to be defensive about it, its straight up engineering common sense.

No, I am expressing my opinion that if there was a real issue like you say, CRK would have engineered it out by now.

 

[Glenn056]

No, I am expressing my opinion that if there was a real issue like you say, CRK would have engineered it out by now.

This is just my assumption, but maybe the CRKs look more "elegant" with a slight radius rather than a severe one that wraps around half of the stop pin (triad lock). They probably think that as such, as long as they tell people not to flick them it'll be alright.

Sent from planet Mars

 

[johnnytoxin]

This is just my assumption, but maybe the CRKs look more "elegant" with a slight radius rather than a severe one that wraps around half of the stop pin (triad lock). They probably think that as such, as long as they tell people not to flick them it'll be alright.

Sent from planet Mars

I will respectfully disagree. What you are "assuming" suggests that CRK is simply lazy when it comes to improving their products . "As long as people don't flick them it will probably be ok".....come on. That is the attitude of someone who doesn't take pride in their work....not a successful company that has been making knives for decades. Benchmade uses a flat tang against a round stop pin on all their axis lock knives. People flick the living crap out of those. So why don't they switch to an interface like the one previously mentioned? We can go back and forth on this all day, in the end, most of us do not design or make knives. We are free to voice an opinion, but our opinions hold no weight unless we are qualified to speak on them. In this case, being qualified would mean that we have experience making and designing knives. I will be the first to admit I have none, therefore I am willing to bet there are reasons that the experts in this industry manufacture certain features in their products that we don't fully understand. For us to make assumptions and suggest that "this knife would be better if...." is arrogant and in some cases ignorant.

 

[Glenn056]

I will respectfully disagree. What you are "assuming" suggests that CRK is simply lazy when it comes to improving their products . "As long as people don't flick them it will probably be ok".....come on. That is the attitude of someone who doesn't take pride in their work....not a successful company that has been making knives for decades. Benchmade uses a flat tang against a round stop pin on all their axis lock knives. People flick the living crap out of those. So why don't they switch to an interface like the one previously mentioned? We can go back and forth on this all day, in the end, most of us do not design or make knives. We are free to voice an opinion, but our opinions hold no weight unless we are qualified to speak on them. In this case, being qualified would mean that we have experience making and designing knives. I will be the first to admit I have none, therefore I am willing to bet there are reasons that the experts in this industry manufacture certain features in their products that we don't fully understand. For us to make assumptions and suggest that "this knife would be better if...." is arrogant and in some cases ignorant.

Very good points sir and i stand corrected on that

Sent from planet Mars

 

[timberweasel]

Yeah that's correct, there is a very slight curve to the tang i've seen it all on the sebs i've had. Unfortunately it's not quite large enough to distribute the force to the rounded part of the pin tho, if it was a more pronounced curve it would work great, maybe they'll add it in future. It's not a huge deal anyways, just a slight change that could be an improvement.

Don't forget that the 21 uses an absolutely massive stop pin; the tang relief doesn't need a severe curve to make maximum contact with the pin. Plenty enough area is covered for shock absorption, imo.

Now I don't flick my knives, but I've owned my Sebs for a few years now and they've been cycled thousands of times. I do not see any flat spots on my stop pins or signs of tang wear. Not yet anyway.

-Brett

 

[Glenn056]

I feel silly talking about CRKs, as i have not owned any yet due to being a 16 yo with limited budget. Ouchie😓

Sent from planet Mars

 

[johnnytoxin]

Very good points sir and i stand corrected on that

Sent from planet Mars

:thumbup: we are all here to learn and discuss. Myself included.

 

[timberweasel]

:thumbup: we are all here to learn and discuss. Myself included.

Well said, johnnytoxin! :thumbup:

Some members seem to enjoy dog-paddling in circles with pedantic exposition. It's just goat bait.

-Brett

 

[Glenn056]

👍👍👍

I'll be back

 

[symphonyincminor]

External stop pins are just plain poor engineering:

Then there's always this....

[youtube]Hz1hzWAwLOM[/youtube]

 

[ursamajor]

Regarding external pins cracking the blade:



This is from a well respected dealer that hangs out here on BF. I'll leave the name anonymous.

Thumb studs that are press fit. Some Thumb studs are bolted through in a similar manner as a Chicago Screw, like my 4Max.


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[ursamajor]

External stop pins are just plain poor engineering:

Then there's always this....

[youtube]Hz1hzWAwLOM[/youtube]

From the reading of this thread, I'm seeing internal stop pins being referenced as one where the blade tang encloses and tracks around the pin.

External is everything else. A Demko Knives Triad (and even Cold Steel's) is light years ahead of every other maker in lock strength in every direction. It would fall into the external camp. They also have much longer operating lives, as you can flick them as hard as you want, till your very thumb falls off, and they won't wear out, or lock rock, like a frame lock.

Use frame locks in the manner Blues Bender describes, meaning cutting with the edge, and the internal pin frame locks are fine.

Use them in the manner Mickey Ray Burger romanticizes with his knives, like the Special Forces operater account (who is a says he is Recon Ranger Seal Game Warden Beret Crossing Guard) of needing to pry a bank vault door open, because the ATM is down, and was able to do so with his Strider Nightmare Grind ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ, in tiger stripes, with no tip damage?

What do all those letters mean? It's a secret and sacred nod to the hardcore operators out there!


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